Reimagining Grief: A New Path to Healing After Loss (Kate Doerge) - Episode 246

One of the hardest truths about being human is this: every single one of us will experience grief.

Yet despite how universal loss is, grief can feel incredibly isolating. We often wonder if we're doing it "right," why it still hurts so much, or whether we'll ever truly experience joy again.

This week, we're honored to welcome back Kate Doerge—certified grief coach, nonprofit founder, brand strategist, and now the author of the beautiful book, Reimagining Grief: A New Path to Finding Healing, Strength, and Joy After Loss.

Kate's story is one of unimaginable loss. Within just a few years, she lost both of her parents, and later experienced every parent's worst nightmare—the death of her sixteen-year-old daughter, Penny.

Rather than asking herself, "How do I get over this?" Kate began asking a different question:

"Is there another way to walk through grief?"

That question became the foundation for her work and her new book.

In this deeply moving conversation, Kate challenges many of the beliefs we've been taught about grief and shares a more compassionate, hopeful approach—one that allows us to stay connected to the people we love while continuing to fully live our own lives.

Whether you're grieving someone today, supporting a loved one through loss, or simply want to be better prepared for one of life's inevitable experiences, this episode offers wisdom, comfort, and practical tools that remind us we're never truly alone.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE DISCUSS:

• Why we need to rethink many of our cultural beliefs about grief
• The difference between "moving on" and learning to move forward
• How maintaining a continuing bond with someone you've lost can be deeply healing
• The five healing actions from Kate's new book
• Why grief isn't something to "fix" or "complete"
• Finding moments of joy without feeling guilt
• How to better support someone who is grieving
• Kate's personal journey after losing her daughter, Penny, and how it inspired her life's work
• Why hope and grief can exist together

MORE FROM KATE DOERGE

• Book: Reimagining Grief: A New Path to Finding Healing, Strength, and Joy After Loss
• Website: katedoerge.com
• Penny's Flight Foundation: Penny's Flight Foundation

If this episode touched your heart, please consider following our podcast, leaving a review, and sharing it with someone who may need this conversation today. Sometimes the greatest gift we can give someone who is grieving is simply reminding them they are not alone.

Visit seekingcentercommunity.com for more with Robyn + Karen and many of the guides on Seeking Center: The Podcast. You'll get access to live weekly sessions, intuitive guidance, daily inspiration, and a space to share your journey with like-minded people who just get it.

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Transcript

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. one of the hardest truths about being human is that every one of us will experience grief. Yet despite how universal it is, so many of us still feel completely alone when it happens. Today, we're welcoming back someone whose [00:01:00] story touched so many of you the first time she joined us.

Kate Doerge is a certified grief coach, non-profit founder, brand strategist, and now the author of the beautiful new book, Reimagining Grief: A New Path to Finding Healing, Strength, and Joy After Loss.

Kate knows unimaginable loss. Within just a few years, she lost both of her parents before she faced the indescribable, the passing of her 16-year-old daughter, Penny.

But instead of asking, "How do I get over this?" Kate began asking a different question: Is there another way to walk through grief? That question became the foundation of her new book, where she challenges many of the beliefs we've all grown up with about grief, and offers five healing actions that help us stay connected to the people we've lost while finding our way back to joy.

Whether you're grieving someone today, supporting someone who is, or simply want to be better prepared for one of life's inevitable experiences, [00:02:00] Kate has walked the walk and done deep research. She will be sharing wisdom, hope, and a new perspective and approach to handle what may be the most difficult time in your life.

Let's get going. Hi, Kate. Hi, Karen. 

Kate: Hi. Oh, Robyn and Karen. Hi, both. I'm so happy to be with you all. 

Karen: as we were saying right before we started to tape, this is like a full circle moment. 

Kate: It is. It all began with you 

Karen: and with Karen. Oh. Well- Oh ... we've gotten to know you so much more through this journey but also from the very beginning. So for those who are listening now or watching who may not have seen the first episode with you on Seeking Center, and when you were just talking about this book, when this book was just really a thought in your mind.

Can you just talk a little bit about that journey and , the loss of your mom and, Penny, and just how you began this journey of reimagining your grief? 

Kate: Yeah. And it was a journey. It really was, because, you know, I think it goes back again to my father's advice, [00:03:00] which we have talked about, I think, in one of our moments on the podcast about how the night before my husband Chad and I got married, my father had pulled us aside and said, " You've lived a charmed life.

You have beautiful friends. You have beautiful family. But you will be challenged, and it's up to you how you play those cards you're dealt in life." And I say this now again and again, where Chad and I, in that moment with 300 people there for our beautiful wedding, we just looked at each other and we looked at my dad, and we were like, "You're really killing our vibe here."

Because we didn't know, at the time what that even meant, although my father was my greatest role model. And he was such a force in my life, and he w- had ... He was so filled with faith because not only in, studying to be a priest, but he was a Marine, and he just lived life in such a big way.

So I knew when he said that he really meant [00:04:00] it. I didn't know what it meant until we were faced with, you know, the challenges over and over again throughout the course of our marriage and, and the decisions we had to make because of it, and how we were gonna play the cards. So this book is the book that I wanted when I lost my father to heart failure, my mother in a car crash five days before Christmas, and then of course our beautiful Penny at 16 years old.

Because there was no book out there that told me I did have a choice, and that I could have agency and control during an otherwise uncontrollable time in my life. And so I wanted to take action and this is the book that describes it all. And it is full circle, because I love... In the book I talk about you all, and how you opened my eyes so much to one of the actions I talk about, which is staying open to the signs.

Robyn: Yeah. And- And you know, we were saying before we got going today how [00:05:00] just reflecting on the fact that when we introduced you to looking at signs and to the possibility of talking to a spiritual medium- 

All: Yeah ... 

Robyn: that was really about your mom at the time. you know, we've known you for quite some time now.

Mm-hmm. And you were already, even at that point, with the loss of your dad and then the loss of your mom, I remember being so in awe of how you had handled your mom in terms of- ... losing her suddenly and making a choice at the time for everyone, your children, and the fact that it was right before Christmas, and that you were still gonna find the joy, even though your mom was your best friend.

Kate: Yeah. 

Robyn: And, we were like, "Have you ever talked to a spiritual medium? I would love for you to just very briefly for those who haven't listened to the first time we talked to you, touch on the fact that you were living with Penny's diagnosis from the time she- was a child. So- 

Kate: Mm-hmm ... 

Robyn: we didn't even know that that was something that maybe in your [00:06:00] mind was anything that you would ever have to deal with- Yeah ... further than some of these medical procedures. 

Kate: Yeah, 'cause we didn't let it define our lives. And going back again to that advice from my father of how do you play the cards you're dealt in life, our first moment of that recognition and that choice we made was when Penny was four months old, rolled off our bed, fractured her tibia bone, and we were living in New York City at the time, downtown, and we raced up to Hospital for Special Surgery.

And we were told then, not only is it a fracture, but it's something very rare called congenital pseudarthrosis, the bowing of the long bone, the tibia bone. One out of 300,000 kids have this, and we were told this, but because it's so rare, they typically only see it under this umbrella of something called neurofibromatosis, or NF.

NF affects one out of 2,000 individuals. And so we were getting this news, you know, sort of like at a rifle shot approach and there we were [00:07:00] holding Penny, four months old, in my arm. And Chad and I just looked at each other, and we were like, " Okay, here we go. How are we gonna play these cards that we're being dealt?"

And it was in that moment that, we made the decision. We're not gonna let this define Penny's life, you know? She had multiple casts. She had seven surgeries. She wore a little protective brace her entire life, but we bedazzled it. Mm-hmm. And we accessorized it to match all of her outfits, and she wore big bows in her hair and beautiful clothes, and she lived a big, and beautiful life, 'cause she was never defined by this.

And she did test positive for NF, but again, we didn't let it define her. So people didn't even know what Penny was going through, because she was showing up every day with love and light and kindness and positivity and resilience, and that was a choice that we made, and we followed her lead. 'Cause, you know, I talk about how every surgery Penny had, she had seven on her [00:08:00] leg to fuse that bone- Every surgery she went into, she would take pictures, selfies, singing into the camera, laughing.

And then after the surgery, she'd get home, and all of her friends would come in and decorate her room, and they'd be onto the next activity. So it really wasn't until at age 14 when just for your listeners, neurofibromatosis is the growth of tumors anywhere along your nerve pathways. So you can have them topically.

You can have them along your optic nerves that lead you go to blind, or you can have them along your hearing that sometimes lead you to go deaf. You can also have cognitive issues. You can have bone abnormalities, café-au-lait spots. No one condition looks the same. So in Penny's case, she had this bowed tibia bone, and that was all she had.

She had little café-au-lait spots, but they looked like freckles. So people just thought she had this protective brace and that she had sort of this bowed tibia bone, and that was it. And it wasn't until she was 14 that [00:09:00] we saw this little bit of a wandering eye, and it was during COVID, and we thought it was because that she was staring at the computer screen so much, online classes.

And when we went to go get the eye doctor, the checkup, they said, "I think you should go get an MRI. Just check it out." And it was in the fall of 2020 that we went, and we discovered the first tumor. And it was benign until seven surgeries later, removing it, chemo, radiation it was malignant. And that's what spread and, and ended up taking Penny's life.

But because with each of those moments we were choosing to show up with such positivity and, not letting this define us, people didn't know, and you all were the same, what we were going through, 'cause we just... It wasn't that we were in denial. That's not it. It just was, you know what? Penny has a life to live, and so this is what we're gonna do.

And so that moment of you all, and I'll never forget this because we were working together, and you said to me you [00:10:00] were like, "We have someone you should talk to." and I'll never forget it 'cause I was like, "Oh- Oh, I've never talked to a medium. I, I don't know what that's like.

Robyn: You're like- 

Kate: And- "Okay" 

Robyn: I 

Kate: was like, "Okay." I trust you, so I'll- I do ... I'll give it a go. 

Robyn: I'll 

Kate: give it a go. Exactly. Right. Exactly. And that is where I am such a believer that people are put in your path for a reason, and I know we were put in each other's paths for a reason at that time for a reason, because it was that fall that I had my first conversation with Lisa Nitzkin, and it's changed my life.

and it was more for my mom. 

But l- little did we all know that two days prior to my conversation with Lisa that we got the news that the tumor was malignant and that we were gonna have to remove it., I remember 

Robyn: the date, I f- was it December 

Kate: 5th? It was December.

It was. It was, I think, yeah. Yeah. That's amazing, because we got the news the night before Thanksgiving. 

Yep. The night before Thanksgiving we got the phone call that the pathology report had come back, and [00:11:00] it was a glioblastoma, and that they were able to go in and they were gonna get it removed, and we, we were just gonna keep going.

Robyn: Yeah. 

Kate: And then we were gonna try to get the chemo and the radiation. And so that phone call with Lisa, I didn't even know how much I needed it because she was saying all the things that I feel like I knew intuitively, but she was backing up about my mom. But then it also related because she was saying to me, "I keep seeing faith over fear."

And she said, "You know your mother lived her life's purpose for a reason, and you know that Penny's living her life's purpose for... And no matter what happens, have faith over fear that she's on the right path and you're on the right path." And she was saying things like, "You're gonna write a book.

You're gonna be on a big stage. You're a teacher." and at that time I look back on that and I kept thinking what client am I gonna do that for?" Uh. Like, what... You know, what... I'm a teacher? And [00:12:00] it's just amazing, 'cause I look back on that, I'm like, oh, my gosh, yeah, those were the building blocks.

Everything that I have experienced in my life has led me to where I am today. Mm. And the gifts that I have received to be able to do the work that I'm doing now, I know I'm living my life's purpose. I know it. 

Robyn: You are. Yeah. And that's the whole thing with Lisa then, She just, she had no idea about- No

anything in terms- No ... and so that's what made it also, like, so validating. And you could- 

Kate: Yes ... 

Robyn: no one could look that up. To the point of- No ... like, we had no idea what was going on with Penny. No. Yeah. 

Kate: no one else did- No ... because we had just received the news, and she, she was laying it out clearly.

And, it's so fascinating because I've gone back to that tape so many times over the years, and all the things she was saying that were gonna come down the line have come down the [00:13:00] line. Wow. And It has brought me so much comfort and love, and filled my heart knowing, you know, in all these moments where I have just been leaning in heart first, not having a blueprint, but just following my heart and intuition probably of I know this is what I should be doing, so I'm just gonna keep doing it.

And that's truly what has led me to where I am today and certainly writing the book because it's just the way that I've lived my life. And when we were talking about... Lisa and I were talking about my mother, again, going back to we all have a choice on how we play the cards we're dealt.

My father passed away first from heart failure, and I talk about how my dad not only the greatest advice, but- He had this mantra growing up where he would say to us, "When my time comes, it comes." And I remember thinking, "That's so morbid." Um, but, but I thi- you know, I look back [00:14:00] on that and I realize my father, who was s- so filled with faith and living life to the fullest, he meant when his time comes, it comes.

Because he had lived life- ... with intention and purpose and no regrets, you know? And so I also think that when he passed, my brothers and I and my mom had grown up with him saying, "When my time comes, it comes." Like, he was accepting of the fact that when his time came, it came. And it did, so therefore we were able to accept it.

And so we weren't... Not saying that we weren't grieving, because it was the greatest loss to lose my father first, my greatest role model, but my point being that there was an acceptance that we knew he would be ready to go- Yeah ... if that makes sense. 

Robyn: It totally... I actually say that to everybody all the time Yeah

es- including my family. I'm like, whatever hap- like we... You know, because I lost my father suddenly when I was 12. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And [00:15:00] that defined so much in my life and- Mm-hmm ... very much in terms of what I think is promised in terms of- Mm ... of life. Like, I have lived my life since that day that no day is promised, so you must live it to the fullest.

 And whatever that is- 

Kate: And what a gift that is ... 

Robyn: right. Yes. I actually think it is a gift. 

Kate: And I feel that way as well, because when it came to my father's passing, yes, he was a devout Catholic, so we had to do the Catholic mass, but we also recognized my dad was such a maverick. Like, he was such a Frank the Tank, swimming the length of the pool with a cigarette butt in his mouth, coming out and having it still be lit.

Like, he was that guy who broke the mold. So therefore, we couldn't- cookie cutter him. we couldn't go through the motions that everyone does when they lose someone, because my dad just wasn't that person. And so, yes, we had the traditional Catholic mass, but then we had a chili cook-off with a bluegrass band.

And we told [00:16:00] funny Irish inappropriate jokes, 'cause that's what my dad would do. And so that was sort of the, the dress rehearsal for them. My mom and the car crash, and five days before Christmas, and the fact that I talked to her that morning, and then she was gone that night, and I was the one who got the phone call.

 and it was different with my mom, 'cause we never thought that she would be sick or age. She should have lived till she was 100. That's what we, everyone always said. But when I look back on it, my mom lived her life's purpose. And similarly to my father, when her time came, it came, and what a gift her life was for me, because she lived life to the fullest.

She was the brightest light. She was glass full, not even half full. She was positivity overload in the most beautiful way, and such a role model for me, that it was similar when her time came in this tragic accident. We had a [00:17:00] choice. We could sit in a dark closet and wear all black and never come out of the house, and then lose Christmas celebrating her friends, or all of that, or we could do what she would want us to do, which was honor her and celebrate her, and throw celebrations of her life, which we did.

And the beauty of that was that it was so unusual that people couldn't believe that we made a choice. They could not believe that our first gut- reaction was to bring everyone together because I didn't want people to be alone. And not having my parents around, we had to make the decisions on how to move forward.

So my brothers and I sort of were looking at each other with all of my family members and my parents' friends waiting for us, and what a difference it made to be like, "We're bringing everyone together. We're gonna celebrate my mom. We're gonna honor her. We're not [00:18:00] gonna do the traditional mass.

Everyone wears black. Everyone's gonna wear color. We're gonna have a celebration of her life. We're gonna have fireworks, in fact. We're all gonna dance. We're all gonna, tell the Cassie stories." And people couldn't believe it, but they loved it. Yeah. And the celebrations of my mom's life, the parade that we did- I loved reading about that

of my best, favorite aunties. I didn't 

Robyn: know that part until 

Kate: I 

Robyn: read- Oh my gosh ... the book. I could feel the emotion that came from that, and the joy, which, like- 

Kate: The joy. 

Robyn: Yeah ... you exude joy. I mean, it, we've

I know we, we talk about that, and we'll talk about that more in this conversation. And clearly- 

Kate: That's from my mom ... uh, clearly- You know, she was- Clearly that's from 

Robyn: your ... Yes. 

Kate: Yeah. I mean, I feel every day I'm turning more and more into my mom. I'm like my hair, my every- Like, I'm becoming my mother. I take that to heart 'cause she was such a role model for me.

but she exuded joy, so therefore we had to celebrate her and honor her in that way. So to be able to throw a parade in [00:19:00] one of her most favorite communities with her childhood friends and so many wonderful family members, and have everyone come dressed as their favorite version of Cassie. I wore her belly dancing costume.

Uh, we had people, you know, in all sorts of dance outfits, Jazzercise clothes. I mean, it was so awesome. And looking around at that celebration, were laughing and telling the stories, and I always think about that moment 'cause I'm like, imagine if we didn't do this. Imagine if we had decided we were just gonna do what everyone else does.

That wouldn't have honored my mother's beautiful life. 

Robyn: Yeah. You know? And I think that's what you do in this book, is you give permission to people 

Karen: to- Well, and that's what I wanted to ask you, Kate- Yeah ... because as I'm listening, you have chosen, really in your whole life with your daughter, like from that moment you made that choice to lean into- hope, lean into- Yeah, 

treasuring each day, [00:20:00] leaning into the empowerment of the moment of which you, you harnessed. And then you did that with the loss of your dad and your mom as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I feel like I always love to imagine that loved one, like, standing in the back of the room. Like, I listened to- Yes ... Robyn when she did the eulogy for her mom, and I said, "Oh my gosh, your mom must have loved that.

Yes. Like, it must have felt so good, and that's how you would want them to feel. and yet, in your situations, all of them really, there was grief there. Yeah. How did you give grief its place, and yet empower yourself to be able to celebrate? I feel like for people who are listening who may really still be feeling that- 

Kate: Yes

Karen: heavy-duty weight of grief, getting to where you are might be a real leap. 

Kate: A leap. Yeah. Yeah. Because listen, it is not easy. What I tell everyone, you know, grief is debilitating. It's messy. It crushes you to the core. This is not all rainbows and [00:21:00] butterflies from the moment it happens. But I think, again, it goes back to we have a choice, and what would our loved ones want us to be doing?

Yeah. What would they want us to do? They would want us to keep moving forward, and it doesn't have to be in big ways, because I also recognize I am on the other side of it. But what I will say is when I was in it, even in the thick of it with my mother car crash, getting the phone call from the hospital to say, "I'm so sorry to tell you she didn't make it," I did have a choice, and I could have stayed in my car and never gotten out with the snow coming down and just losing everything.

But I also recognized, what would my mom want? She would want me to get out of the car and go inside and get the kids and bring everyone together. And that is why one of my first actions is connection, because it is so critical to bring people together to feel that support [00:22:00] so you're not alone.

Because when we're grieving, the first thing we do is we, the tendency to isolate, and we as human beings need each other in this life, and certainly in loss. So for me, that was just like a natural reaction. Of course I need to bring everyone together. And so it was, a journey of, just making these decisions and recognizing, yes, grief is messy and destabilizing, but what would our loved ones want?

Yeah. And that's what motivated me to keep going, to at least get my feet on the ground and be like, "I can do this. I can do this in their honor, and I'm gonna live life in their honor, and I can hold joy and grief in the same space," 'cause this is- Yeah, I know. 

Robyn: I think that is 

Kate: a big thing- ... what they'd want me to do

that 

Robyn: you, you talk 

Karen: about Holding them in the same space, yeah. I think that is so critical to people. Yeah. It's not that you're, you're pushing the grief away. No. It's you're including it. Yes, 

Kate: and moving through it. Yeah. So this is, I am not saying you get over it, because I hold grief every day, but I [00:23:00] also recognize when I reach for joy, I talk so much about this, the signs that show up are so beautiful.

It's like, because I know that Penny's watching me reach for joy and keep moving forward, and then she shows me the signs to almost tell me, like, keep going. Keep doing it. Keep reaching for joy. Because I know- Absolutely ... that's what you would want. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Kate: And I, I mean, the stories that, oh my gosh, there's been so many of the signs.

I just... And we'll get into, 'cause that's obviously one of my actions that I talk about. and I put this on my Instagram 'cause I loved it so much, I woke up and I was feeling a little anxious and, and about the book and making sure this reaches all the people who need it. And I took the dogs for a walk at our, our local club.

And, and I was just getting out of the car by the tennis courts, and I, went to go throw the ball to them, and all of a sudden four sprinklers went in tandem. rainbows out on the side of every [00:24:00] sprinkler, four rainbows. And it was, like, so big that it was undeniable. And I thought, I just immediately was like, "Hi, Pen," because I just knew, you know, again, by me getting out there, by me putting my face in the sunshine and just moving forward, she shows up, and she's like- Mm-hmm

"Keep going. Keep doing it." So true. Keep, keep, keep going. 

Robyn: Well, and let's talk about... I wanna recognize what most people think are the five stages of grief- Mm. 

Kate: Mm-hmm ... 

Robyn: from Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, and then- Yes ... what you have come up with that feels like it is reaching for more joy, and, and more actionable.

Kate: So that's exactly it. Again, when, when I experienced the loss of my father, my mother, and certainly Penny, people kept sending me these books that were so depressing. and Five Stages, which was written in the 1960s, , was one of them. And I was like, I don't want to be told that I have to sit in this and that I'm [00:25:00] gonna feel angry and in denial and bargaining.

Bargaining for what? To bring them back? Depressed. And then finally, after all these stages are washing over me, then I'm gonna accept that I've lost my loved ones. And of course you feel that way, but I didn't wanna be told I had to feel that way and that I had to sit in it and wait for these stages, 'cause grief is not linear.

It doesn't work like that. You know, you have good days, you have bad days, you have good days, you have bad days. You're always carrying it. But I felt like I wanna have control. again, I wanna take agency. I wanna feel like I can move through this and take action, because you all know me. I don't sit down a lot.

Yes, you do. We know. But I just was like, wait a second. I don't want anyone telling me what to do. And so I just recognized, like, with these actions that I, again, was doing just based from my heart [00:26:00] and just what was instinctively a way to take control looking back on it after I had made these decisions, all of a sudden it became so clear that I was reimagining how to move through grief in a different way because of these lives that I was ready to celebrate, that I was ready to connect with them.

And so for me, the five stages were then transformed into five actions to move through grief. So again, it's not linear, but what worked for me, people can use them in any, format they would like. Connection. Connecting with others is critical, and I'll go into each one.

Second one was celebrating our lost loved ones because grief is not cookie cutter. It is not one way fits all. Third, staying open to the signs because our loved ones are still with us, as we know, just in a different shape and form Fourth, movement. Get moving, because we [00:27:00] cannot sit, because we know grief, anxiety, depression, PTSD, it lives in our body, and if we don't physically move it, it gets stuck.

And then the fifth is turning pain into purpose, because even now as a certified grief coach, one of my most favorite exercises is in order to heal a broken heart, you have to mend someone else's broken heart. So that idea of how healing it is to help others and how it helps you, and that cycle. So for me, everything I went through were these five actions, because when we talk about connection, that was something that I did immediately with my father, you know, certainly again with my mother.

And with Penny, it was critical that no one felt alone, right? Because, like, who loses a 16-year-old child? Who loses your best friend, your sister, You know, it's the, as you said, it's the, indescribable. It's the [00:28:00] unimaginable, 'cause in our lives, you're not supposed to lose a child before you go.

And so our community had never experienced that before. My boys had never experienced it, Penny's girlfriends. So that was an immediate reaction where when even in the last week of Penny's life we made the decision to bring her home and to fill our house with love and light and invite everyone in. and I love the story.

I've been telling this on some of my other conversations about how I had a friend who recently just said to me, "Kate, did you know when we got the phone call that you were bringing Penny home from Memorial Sloan Kettering," none of us even knew what Penny had been going through, because again, we just weren't letting it define her.

So there was so much shock that this was the end, that she went on Amazon and she bought hundreds of battery lit candles. Because in her mind she said that, "When you came home, we were gonna [00:29:00] surround the house with love, and we were gonna create this vigil of light so that when you were inside you would feel the light."

And I started to laugh, 'cause I was like, "What? You thought you were gonna be on the outside?" And she said, "Yes. And then when we arrived, you brought the light in." 

Robyn: Oh, 

Kate: goodness. You brought the light in. It's beautiful. And that I... But I can't imagine it any other way. And what a difference that made by bringing everyone in and creating this connection so that everyone could share in the love and the light and create this love cocoon for Penny so that she felt the love.

 And we sent her out on a rocket ship of love. And so that was, like, the start of how important connection is. Not only through that last week of Penny's life, but then the continuation. so that was action one for me. And scientific research sh- shows, and through the book, writing the book, how important connection is in grief [00:30:00] therapy, and that is why there's grief groups.

There's all sorts of different ones, because research shows with that connection, you lessen prolonged grief just to be able to feel that support. Grief, depression, PTSD, anxiety, you lessen it with connection. So connection for me was number one. Number two was celebration. Because as we talked about, it's not cookie cutter.

We need to celebrate the lives that our loved ones lived in the way they lived them. So whether it's the come dressed as your favorite Cassie parade or Penny's life celebration. I never call it a funeral anymore, because we're celebrating someone's life. And, no one wore black, 'cause Penny never wore black.

We sang her favorite songs. And no one could believe it. We had paintings everywhere, of all of her artwork, and people loved that. 

Robyn: So What I also want to point out to people that you bring up when you are talking about celebrating the loved [00:31:00] one's life is that for you, the person reading it, most of us don't think about how we would want to be celebrated. And I just want to point out that you bring that up, and you actually give every reader the opportunity with, you have a worksheet and encourage people to answer, just like you would a power of attorney and things like that. 

Kate: Exactly. Cause change the narrative.

You know, we talk about what we're gonna do for our estate planning, what's our financial planning, but why can't we have the conversation about what does that look like for you? How do you want to be honored? How do you want to celebrate your life? What's the music you want played? What's the food? Do you want to go big?

Do you want to go small? Those conversations, and I did include worksheets because I really, when I talk about reimagining grief, I want to turn it on its head. I want to, again, reimagine the five stages, but also talk about the language we use. [00:32:00] You know, instead of saying a funeral, why can't we say a life celebration?

Instead of saying someone died, why can't we say they passed? They're still with us, just in a different shape and form. 

Robyn: Totally. I love the way you point that out. I really do. And just having gone through it myself recently with my mom- You know. I do. And you know, I had a very different relationship with my mom.

And my mom, she didn't always exude joy. She actually was a very- Mm ... anxious woman. Mm. But she lived a life that- Yeah ... was pretty big. And- 

Kate: Yeah ... 

Robyn: I wanted to make sure no matter what my relationship was with her, she really touched a lot of people's lives, and I wanted to make sure that was clear.

And I felt responsible- Yeah ... we didn't focus on the sadness. We focused on- Yes ... the life led Yes ... that was a, that was a meaningful life no matter how you looked at it, 

Karen: I was just gonna say too, though, on top of that is how the rituals that we have with death just underscore the darkness, the fear, the isolation- Mm-hmm.

Robyn: Yes ... 

Karen: the, just the [00:33:00] heaviness of the loss versus the opportunity- Yeah ... to empower yourself, to bring the light forward and celebrate. So what you're doing, Kate- Yeah ... I think it'll be an eye-opener for so many of us. We're just so used to going to the wake and the funeral and everybody wearing black.

Kate: Exactly. But it doesn't have to be that way, and I think it really was with my mom, the eye-opener, and I talk about this in the book, that when we sort of were just going through the motions and we, like, found ourselves in the Catholic Church where, you know, my father, we had had his mass and we all went as kids growing up.

And I just looked at my brothers, I'm like, "This is so wrong. This doesn't feel right. This is not how we're gonna celebrate, you know, Mom. This is just not who she was." And it was courage, I guess, and bravery to be like nope, we're gonna do this different because she was such a bright light. And that's where I go back to, like, the gift she gave us is that she lived life in such a big way that it was [00:34:00] undeniable that this is what we had to do for her, and we had to celebrate her in this way 'cause she was, you know, she broke the mold like my dad broke the mold.

And even with my dad, we started planting the seeds of doing things differently where, you know, he was such a maverick that we didn't have a polished headstone for my dad. I mean, we excavated a huge rock from his favorite beach. And we, we have it in, etched in the rock Frank Kernan, our rock, and you know- Aw

his birth date and his passing date because he just, that's who he was. And so for then with my mom, it was the same way. It was like her headstone should be beautiful, and it should be pink and glowing. And, all of a sudden it was like wait, we can customize this so we're honoring them for who they were- 

Robyn: Yeah

Kate: and not cookie cutter. Exactly. And so for me, celebration is such a beautiful way- of [00:35:00] celebrating their life, and there's so many different ways to do it. The music, the flowers, the colors. Like, you know, just what did they love? Yeah. What lit them up? And celebrate that. And so two is celebrating our lost loved ones.

Three is staying open to the signs, because again, you all opened my eyes, and I truly mean that. Because I don't think I was open to the signs, before my conversation with you all and before Lisa. I felt an energy with my dad and certainly with my mom, but I don't think I identified it as signs.

I mean, I, I will never forget that feeling of connection with my dad after he passed and I was driving down the road, and I talk about it in the book how It was a quiet winter day, and I was driving, and my dad always used to, as a Marine, he'd squeeze my hand and be like, "Who can say mercy first?" Or who would say it.

And so I was driving down [00:36:00] the road, and I had my hands on the steering wheel, and I just felt this like squeeze, and I knew it was my dad. And I said, I was like, " Hi, Dad." And so I felt him. And similarly with my mom. After a car accident, I raced down to the community where she, the accident happened, where she was living during the winter, and I was sleeping in her bed the night after the accident.

And I woke up because I heard her voice in my ear saying, "Hi, girlie." And I literally sat up, and I was like... And I looked up at the skylight, which was above her bed, and there in the sky was the brightest star just like shining right down on me. And so I think without even knowing it, I was like, okay, there's a connection here, and I feel my dad, I feel my mom, I hear her.

But it wasn't until Penny that all of a sudden my eyes were opened to the signs, and they came just rushing in. 'Cause again, I think Penny is a teacher, and she shows her signs in such a big way- Yes ... so that I can [00:37:00] anecdotally share the stories, they're so undeniable that people are like yeah, that's a sign."

Robyn: Do you remember when I was sitting with Lisa? Lisa hadn't known Penny passed. Yeah. I had gone over to Lisa's house, and I, I forget how it came up even, but I think I was saying something like, "Do you remember you met my friend Kate? You had given her a reading," and that had been maybe t- a year or two prior.

Kate: Yes. 

Robyn: And I said, "You know, just so you know, her daughter Penny passed away." And she literally looks at me, she goes, "Wait here." And she went, she had bought, when you were talking about big ways, do you still have it? This huge, giant penny. 

Kate: That 

Robyn: she had bought it- Oh my God. Yes ... and she didn't know why. She didn't know why- Yeah

she bought it. She was on, like, some place in Wisconsin- Right ... and she was like some store, and something compelled her to buy this penny, and she kept it there. Yeah. And then when I told her, she goes, " It's for Kate. can we send this to Kate?" 

 It just goes- I 

Kate: mean, [00:38:00] Penny is- 

Robyn: I mean, 

Kate: my- ... small but mighty

Robyn: mi- mighty She is Mighty Yes I mean, there's so many, even for me, that Penny showed up. I, so like 

Kate: I know. I know. But she's a teacher. Yeah, she is. And this is where I just recently learned this, because this all comes full circle, that after my conversation with Lisa and opening my eyes to the signs and the butterflies outside of Penny's window the last week of her life, and, you know, she always wore butterflies, the necklace she wore.

No coincidences, right? The butterflies were showing up. The afternoon that Penny passed, her favorite song, Walking on Sunshine, she used to belt it out and sing it as a little girl and her life mantra, right? She literally walked on sunshine. No coincidence. Penny passes, we go and take the boys and the dogs for a long walk.

We get back into the car, Walking on Sunshine is playing on the radio. And so for us it was undeniable that you can't make that up. You can't make up the [00:39:00] reflection of the cross in the driveway that's pointing to the window where Penny had passed, that friends of ours took this picture as Chad and I are in the room with Penny.

And on the timestamp of that photo, it's the moment Penny passed. And when you look at the picture there in the driveway is this reflection pointing to the window. So, like, I recognize now after being gifted the book Signs by Laura Lynn Jackson, which was the only book that brought me comfort, right, when I was saying all these other books were so depressing.

 That book Signs, sharing the stories of all of the signs people have seen that were undeniable, allowed me to share that book with my boys, with Penny's girlfriends, with our family. And all of a sudden people were opening their eyes, and the comfort that was bringing. Because then people were sharing the stories and DM'ing me.

And, you're sending me pennies, and, you know, people are texting me. and how fun that was- Oh my goodness ... because as a way to keep- It is ... [00:40:00] Penny alive. 

Robyn: Well, I know we're gonna talk about one of your other actions is turning pain into purpose, which you have done in a huge way with Penny, especially in your life.

Kate: Yeah. 

Robyn: And you have this foundation, which we'll talk about. and one of the, honors of, my life is being able to also be a part of raising money for the foundation. Mm. And the morning that I was going to one of the events that I was participating in- I was doing a Peloton workout.

I will never forget this. 

All: Oh, 

Karen: yeah. 

Robyn: I was doing a P- I still have it on my phone. It comes up every once in a while. It reminds me. I was doing, this event, and one of Penny's signs is a purple butterfly. 

And The instructor, the one that I turned on that morning on demand wasn't even looking all of a sudden I look at it, and the woman is wearing- 

Kate: Right

the 

Robyn: whole thing- Purple butterflies ... was purple butterflies. Her workout attire was purple butterflies. Purple butterflies. Yep. And, and I'm like, could you... You cannot make that 

Kate: up. Yeah. Like, I ju- Uh, you can't make it up. It's undeniable. Yeah. And that's what I have learned, over the course of this [00:41:00] time by choosing to keep open to the signs.

 And the connection that has been made with Laura Lynn Jackson, who is our lifeline, and no coincidence again on Penny's third anniversary of her passing this year, Laura launched her most recent book, Guided. And here in Long Island, a mile from our house, so we made the choice to bring all of our friends and family to go hear her speak.

No coincidence. Again, we go to write our questions on, note cards for the moderator, and we pass them to the moderator, and right as she's about to read them, there's, like, a card explosion on the stage. She drops them all over the stage, and as she's picking them up, she's like, "Oh, my gosh. Well, I had them in order of topic, and now clearly your loved ones are gonna put them in the order in which they're meant to be read."

Whose card's on top? Ours. Oh. So when I met Laura in the book line, and I was such a stalker, I was like, "I just have to tell you, I am such a girl fan of yours. You've been such a lifeline. [00:42:00] You read our card first. No coincidence we're here on Penny's anniversary. You're talking about the butterfly effect. I just have to tell you, like, I just know Penny's here."

And she said, she was like, "Kate, not only is she's here, but I know she's put me on your path to be able to help in this journey of yours and make sure this book reaches all the people who need it." And she has. And it's like we created just this bond because of Penny, And she's been on this journey with me, and she's supported the book in an endorsement, and she's been in conversation with me, and she's beautiful, beautiful.

And the lives she has saved through her books, is such a gift. But she said to me recently, 'cause I was with her at another book event she said, "Penny shows in such big ways because she is a teacher, and you are a partner with her living your life's purpose, and you are teaching others.

So they are undeniable signs so that you can share those stories." It's just so beautiful. Oh. it is the rainbows that show up out of the sprinklers. It's, [00:43:00] as I've told this story to others, you know, my mantra being faith over fear because a friend had sent me this rock. With faith on it, and because Lisa Nitzkin kept telling me faith over fear, and putting Post-its all over my room and my computer when Penny was going through these surgeries, just recognizing faith over fear.

No matter what happens, we're all living our life's purpose. We're on the paths that we're meant to be on. And so that's my favorite mantra, And as a side note, we have a Wagoneer car, one of those old woody 1983 Wagoneer cars. Ever since the kids were babies, they loved it. And so couple months ago, I was running through this neighborhood in Dallas, in Highland Park, thinking about the book, thinking about Penny, and I turn the corner.

And there, sitting in the driveway of this house in Dallas, is our exact same car, this woody Wagoneer car with the license plate faith over fear. 

All: No. Whoa. Oh my [00:44:00] gosh. 

Kate: And it was a New York license plate, in Dallas. Wow. Wow. Our exact car. I mean, it was so obvious that I literally started laughing. I was like, "Okay.

Hi, Pen. I see you." I got you. 

Karen: Oh, wow. 

Kate: But, like, how beautiful is that? So for me, being open to the signs and the connection and the love that brings and the comfort- is so beautiful. 

Karen: , 

and those signs that show that they are still there, and I think- 

Kate: Yeah

Karen: in our grief, in that funeral and that, those last moments, we think that is the end- 

Kate: Yes, but it is not ... 

Karen: of the life and of of our relationship with them, and it it's so far from the truth. 

Kate: And it makes life so fun, 'cause again- Yeah 

Karen: Yeah ... 

Kate: you know, to be able to share the stories and- and they just get bigger and more beautiful, and the connection's deeper, and then you for them when you really need them of "I am having the hardest day.

Just show me you're with me." And they do. They sure do. And then you're like, "Okay, I'm not alone." So [00:45:00] for me- Yeah ... keeping open to the signs was such a beautiful way to take action. So that was three. And then four is get moving. Because again, when we talk about how grief lives in the body, anxiety, stress, grief, it really truly does, and the scientific research again backs it, that grief lives in the gray matter of our brain, and we get stuck in neutral.

And if we don't physically move our body, we will not push that gearshift into drive. And so we need to move. And it doesn't have to be big movement. It's literally, like, put your two feet on the ground, just one foot in front of the other. Get your face out to the sunshine. If you are stuck in a wheelchair, have someone push you out.

Do breathwork. Just shift that energy through your body so you're not sitting in it. 

So I did this just leading heart first, where I knew that I couldn't sit in it, because I just felt it so tightly. It [00:46:00] was almost like I was having a heart attack. It just felt so tight, that I went to my exercise class just ' cause I needed to move my body, and I cried through the entire time.

But I was like, "I just gotta move." So movement is critical, and it can be, again, simplicity of, like, go for a walk with a friend on the beach. Walk around your neighborhood. Get your face to the sunshine. Go to a body of water. Just move. So that has made a big difference. And then the fifth action is turning pain into purpose.

' Cause as I said, it's, you know, in order to heal a broken heart, help mend someone else's broken heart. And for us, we didn't know what we were doing, but it was such a healing way to be able to take all of this pain, and we woke up after the day, Penny's life celebration. We had 1,200 people show up, and Chad and I looked at each other and we're like, " We gotta do something.

We gotta harness all of this love and support we have, [00:47:00] and we gotta find a cure for NF because if we don't do it, who's gonna do it?" And what a beautiful way to keep Penny's legacy alive and be able to help others. And again, we didn't know what we were doing but we brought all of our family and friends in and we had this conversation of like, "I think we're gonna launch a foundation, and we're gonna find a cure for NF."

And so we all came together and did it. And you know, I tell the story about how we didn't know what we were gonna name it. Was it gonna be Penny's Purpose, 'cause she lived this big, beautiful life? And it was Henry, our oldest, who said, "No, it's, Penny's Flight because she lived such a beautiful life in her 16 years, but her wings keep spreading, so her flight continues."

So then it was just like spread your wings, shine your light, and all of a sudden our pillars of the foundation, finding beauty in imperfection, ' cause Penny bedazzled every cast. Having, in the face of challenge, 'cause she lived [00:48:00] every day that way, and having faith over fear. Those became our three tenets.

And it just, we one foot in front of the other kept leaning in heart first to take our pain to be able to help others. And what a difference. As I said at the start of the call, you know, imagine that choice of I could have stayed in bed with the covers over my head and not gotten out of bed, but look at what we've been able to do, raising over $6.4 million to find fund- I, 

Robyn: I mean, 

Kate: it's 

Robyn: unbelievable.

In, like, less than three years. Really. 

Kate: Yeah. It's been ... Yeah. And it's been incredible to bring people together to do it, 'cause as you said, Robyn, you know, just the inclusivity and the spirit of we're all in it together, 'cause not once do we ever say we are doing it. It's we the plural of we all. You know, whether it's the fashion brands Veronica Beard, Roller Rabbit with their collaboration.

It's the over 120 Penny Slate chapters now that have launched across [00:49:00] grade schools and high schools and colleges, and all these kids who are doing something bigger than themselves. And I think that's the idea here of turning pain into purpose. It doesn't have to be launching a foundation or as big as we have chosen to go.

It can truly be writing an op-ed piece in, you know, your local paper about mental health if someone you knew took their life. But sharing your story of pain to be able to help others. Sharing something on social media that really means something to you because you know it's gonna help someone else.

Get out of your own grief and your own mind and help someone else, ' cause the therapy and the healing that brings you is, is everything. 

Robyn: I mean, you are truly putting a new face to grief. 

Kate: That's my hope, because look at the difference it's made for us. Mm-hmm. And that's, uh, that's what I say every time when people say, " I can't imagine losing a [00:50:00] child."

I just stop and I say, "Well, imagine if you did." 

 yeah. Imagine- 

if you did, ' cause we have a choice. You could stay at home with the doors closed and the shades down, and what good does that do you? You then lose your other kids, your husband, your community, your friend. All of that. Imagine if you make a choice to bring connection, bring everyone together, have them be a part of this support.

 Celebrate your lost loved one. Keep them alive with talking- Right ... about them, sharing the stories. Look for the signs. Keep moving. imagine that. 

I know. And that's what we as humans and as our culture- We need to do. Yeah. Like, just take a pause and just imagine it a different way versus being told we have to do this.

Robyn: It's true. it's revolutionary, honestly. 

Kate: Well, this is- Yeah ... I love that word, because you know I say it all the time. Like, the simplest act, [00:51:00] such as the flap of a butterfly's wing, can cause a revolution. 

Robyn: Mm. 

Kate: And that is what we are doing, not only to find a cure for NF, but to spread wings and shine a light on how we can move through grief in a different way.

Yeah. It is a revolution. 

Robyn: It is a revolution. Well, 

Karen: I love ending that. That is the best possible thought. 

Kate: And we're doing it together, and that... How beautiful is that? It's all of us. It's so true. And that is the butterfly effect. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Kate: And that is the simplest act, is we are having this discussion, and one of your listeners is gonna say, "You know what?

I wanna do this a different way. Instead of doing it the same old way, I wanna have a celebration." And then someone at that celebration's gonna be like, "This is so beautiful. Why don't we do it this way?" And so that's the wings, and that's also how we change the narrative. I always say this, but, you know, for those of us who've lost someone recently, especially [00:52:00] recently, you know, a lot of times people don't know what to say, so they don't say anything at all.

Or they'll just say, " I'm so sorry." I'm so sorry, Robyn, for your loss. And you're like, "Thank you." But what you really wanna hear is, "Oh my gosh, I remember the time your mother did this," or, "Tell me about your mom. I wanna hear, like, what did she do for others that you think really made an impact? Tell me."

'Cause that's what we want. Mm. That creates connection. That's right. That creates celebrating. That's 

Robyn: right. 

Karen: Yeah. And reminds you of the joy- You're right ... that that person brought to your life. Yes And the impact that they had. 

Robyn: yeah. And in my case, like, I was telling, both of you know I had a complicated re- relationship with my mom.

Yeah. However, there's so much goodness and lessons learned. Mm-hmm. Mm. Even if I don't always have the most joyous memories- 

Kate: Mm-hmm ... 

Robyn: I'm able to reflect on who I am because of my- Yeah ... I would not be me without my mom. 100%. [00:53:00] You know? And that is the power of that. And, and just having that, that conversation is big.

Yeah. 

Kate: Yeah. And it is. And I think that's also this revolution of just, changing that narrative and that recognition, Robyn, you're right. Not every relationship is easy. and I'm not saying it is, but I do believe there are lessons that we learn- Yeah ... from the lives that- 

Robyn: Absolutely ... 

Kate: we all have lived and for the ones who've impacted our own lives.

And so how do we use those lessons? What do we do with those? And how do we help others, right? 

Robyn: Absolutely. I mean, and there's just no doubt that you are the person to carry this forward for us. Really. Thank you. Thank Penny. Thank your mom. 

Kate: Yeah. I 

Robyn: know. Thank your dad. I know. So 

Kate: I 

Robyn: your whole lineage here.

and then you are the one to be the light right now. That's ... yeah. You're shining the light as bright as they all- were in this lifetime and who they are now. Like- Yeah ... it shines so [00:54:00] bright. It reaches all over the world. 

Kate: I know, and I feel it. This is the- Oh ... the only times I get emotional is, like, the gratitude that I have to be living this life and to be taking the lessons they have imparted on me, and still have them as my partners to do this- 

Robyn: Yes

Kate: this work together. it is not me, myself, and I. It is, you know, my moms, by my s- my dad, Penny certainly. And we're doing it together. 

Robyn: You really are. 

Kate: Well, thank you. We feel it. Thank you for doing it. Yeah. I'm so grateful. And again, it's life coming full circle- It is ... because I thank you all, and thank you Penny, and my mom- Sure

and my dad for bringing you into my life, because you are a part of my path, and I'm just so grateful. 

Robyn: we feel the same way, and we're honored to continue to be on the journey together as we- 

really learn, heal, feel joy, all the things, continuing on together. 

Kate: Yeah, And we can do 

Robyn: it. So thank [00:55:00] you.

And 

Kate: we are doing 

Robyn: it. So- 

Kate: Thank you ... 

Robyn: we encourage everybody to get their copy of Reimagining Grief wherever you get your books. 

Yes. And to also check out pennysflight.org. 

Kate: Thank you. Yes. Yeah. For 

Robyn: all the important work that you're doing. 

Kate: Well, I'm so grateful, and, you know, pennysflight.org and kate Durgee.com, we are all one and the same in doing this work and causing a revolution.

Robyn: Yes. 

Kate: Finding a cure for NF and- Re-ima- ... reimagining grief. 

Robyn: Yes. reach out to Kate. Visit katedurgee.com, which I know is... You can also get to pennysflight.org. you're teaching people. You are speaking and working with companies, and- Yeah.

Yeah ... you're, you're making appearances all over so that you can spread this. 

Kate: Continue this work. Yeah. Yes. Spreading wings and- Yes ... shining a light in the biggest way possible and like Penny, I might be small, but mighty. 

Robyn: I, I was- ... going, I was gonna say that. So- 

Kate: So I'm 

Robyn: glad you did- ... 'cause I was thinking the same thing.

It's so true. So [00:56:00] true. 

Kate: Wings spread wide, and I'm grateful for your help in shining a light on everything we're doing, so thank you. 

All: Thank you.