The Healing Power of Trees (Dr. Lindsay Branham) - Episode 235

There are moments in life when we are gently—or sometimes not so gently—called back to ourselves. For many of us, that call comes through nature.

This week, we're joined by Dr. Lindsay Branham, environmental psychologist, filmmaker, and author of Heartwood. After a successful career as a war journalist and documentary filmmaker working in some of the world's most challenging environments, Lindsay found herself facing a profound health crisis during the pandemic. What began as a search for physical healing became something much deeper: a relationship with the natural world that transformed her understanding of wellness, spirituality, and what it truly means to belong.

In this deeply moving conversation, Lindsay shares how the forests became a teacher, guide, and healing companion during one of the most difficult seasons of her life. Together, we explore the idea that nature isn't just something we visit, it's something we can be in relationship with throughout our lives.

WE EXPLORE

• How chronic illness and uncertainty became an unexpected doorway to healing
• The powerful idea that "the Earth is our first sacred text"
• What it means to be in relationship with trees, forests, and the living world
• How nature can help us reconnect with our intuition, spirit, and sense of belonging
• Lindsay's spiritual journey—from childhood wonder to faith deconstruction and beyond
• The concept of non-dual consciousness and why it changes how we view ourselves and the world
• The limitations of viewing healing through a purely physical lens
• Why so many of us feel disconnected—and how nature offers a path back home
• Practical ways to begin listening more deeply to the natural world around you

A FEW TAKEAWAYS

• Healing isn't always about fixing what's broken—it can be about learning how to be in relationship with what is.
• Nature has wisdom to offer if we're willing to slow down and listen.
• We are not separate from the Earth; we are part of it.
• Sometimes our greatest challenges become invitations into a deeper life.

This conversation is a reminder that the answers we seek may not always come from doing more. Sometimes they arrive through stillness, presence, and a walk among the trees.

MORE FROM DR. LINDSAY BRANHAM

• Check out Heartwood Institute
• You can find Heartwood at bookshop.org
• Follow @lindsdaylaurenne on Instagram
• Follow Lindsay's Heartwood Substack

Visit seekingcentercommunity.com for more with Robyn + Karen and many of the guides on Seeking Center: The Podcast. You'll get access to live weekly sessions, intuitive guidance, daily inspiration, and a space to share your journey with like-minded people who just get it.

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Transcript

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. There are moments in life when we are gently, or sometimes not so gently, called back to ourselves.

And for many of us, that call doesn't come from a person, it comes from nature, from the trees, from the forest, from the quiet spaces we've forgotten how to listen [00:01:00] to. Today's guest, Dr. Lindsay Branham, didn't just reconnect with nature, she formed a relationship with it, One that quite literally helped heal her. Lindsay is an environmental psychologist, filmmaker, and author of Heartwood, where she explores what it means to be in relationship with the living world, not as something separate from us, but as something we belong to. Through her own healing journey, she discovered something powerful that the forest isn't just a place you visit, it's something you can be in conversation with. And in a world where so many of us feel disconnected from ourselves, from each other, from the planet, this idea of reconnection might be exactly what we need.

We feel this conversation is more important than ever. We're talking about healing, about listening, and about remembering something that maybe we've always known deep down, that we're not separate from the Earth, we are part of it. Let's get going. Hi, Lindsay. Hi, Karen. Hi, 

Lindsay: Robyn. Hi. Hi, Lindsay. Welcome. Thank you.

So happy to be here [00:02:00] with you both. 

Karen: we're so excited about this because I think it resonates with so many people that nature is a place where we can reconnect to ourselves, re-energize, remember who we are. Mm-hmm. But you've actually really walked this walk, and the book is just beautiful. So let's just start at the beginning.

Where did your relationship with trees start? It started at a time when you were really going through some things physically and emotionally. can you take us back to that moment and what was happening in your life 

Lindsay: Yeah. So- It all started really 2020, which I know was a big moment for so many of us.

And before that, I was a war journalist and social impact documentary filmmaker, mostly in areas of conflict in Central Africa. Myanmar. I was in Haiti. And so my life was, really geared towards deep listening, but to human beings and people in crisis but also had a very fast pace associated with it, and anyone who has done relief [00:03:00] work or humanitarian aid work, there's a lot of exposure of the body and the soul to beauty and also to a lot of pain, and I think that kind of accumulated.

And then here we are, 2020. The world stops, and I got sick. I didn't have COVID, but I had a slew of symptoms that I didn't know what they were and what the root cause was. And that descended me into what felt like this liminal kind of Bardo, which is a Tibetan phrase that means kind of this, yeah, liminal space between death and life, and it really felt like that because my cognitive capacity declined.

 I got really limited in what I could do during a day, and living with a lot of painful symptoms. Pain speaks loudly because pain is loud, right? So there's no way to kind of tune that down or turn it off, because I couldn't busy myself with work I felt that I was kind of invited to a [00:04:00] threshold of what does this pain have to teach me?

What is this sickness here to show me? And might it be an opening instead of the end, right? and so I, I left New York City during lockdown because that just felt too untenable and ended up in New Mexico and felt very called to that land. I have history of spending a lot of time there, and some of my spiritual teachers lived there.

 My grandfather and grandmother lived there. And there's an absolutely, like just anyone who's been to New Mexico, that, I mean, it's called the Land of Enchantment for a reason. And I was in Santa Fe, and there's a really beautiful canyon preserve that I could walk to, and I would just start spending time just listening and being with nature in a way that progressively started feeling like something else was opening instead of just I'm outside and enjoying nature, to there is a much deeper invitation actually [00:05:00] here.

And Franciscan teacher Richard Rohr, who's in Albuquerque who I've just really appreciated his work over the years, he says the Earth is the first sacred text. And just that phrase alone was kind of like a mantra or a guiding post for me of like what would it be like to actually read the Earth as a sacred text?

One, do I even have the, like, eyes and capacity to read the Earth in that way? And if the Earth is sacred text for all, that is this real, like, invitation to imagine, like, the animism and sacredness and, divinity really that is all around us.

Robyn: Wow. You're right. And that quote in itself is something that I think most of us never think about.

We've become so disconnected. And before we keep going on how nature then showed up for you- how you were able to begin to read it, [00:06:00] I just wanna ask , I'm so glad you brought up your background and all that you have done before and maybe contributed with some of that pain that was stored in your body.

What was your relationship with spirit and your own soul- Yeah ... and knowing of what was going on in general prior to 2020? 

Lindsay: Yeah. We could have a whole podcast about this, but I grew up with well, my parents just had a very beautiful understanding of the divine and God, and it was very expansive.

Mm-hmm. And One of my core memories that kind of illustrates this point is they love St. Francis, actually, which then is, like, curious that I found a Franciscan teacher much later. But they loved the 1970s film about St. Francis, Brother Sun, Sister Moon. It's this film in the '70s. It's gorgeous, and it's about this phenomenal person's life and how he, like, shirked power and authority of the time and just [00:07:00] devoted himself to animals and helping people that were suffering, which wasn't what, you know, the Catholic Church was all about at the time.

And my parents just loved it so much. They would, like, carry a box of these VHS tapes, like, around in our car and give them out to new friends, and they were like evangelists for St. Francis. Yeah. And this... And, like, St. Francis is, like, the patron saint of nature if you, like- Yeah ... see statues- I mean, I- 

Karen: I can't get over that.

That's unbelievable. 

Lindsay: That was, like, your first invitation, I feel. Yeah. It really was. So I'm, like, seven watching this film like, "Why are my parents so weird?

Why can't I watch, like, 90210 or something?" Yeah. but looking back- Oh, that's funny ... it's like these are all little seeds. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. And even if there isn't the capacity to be in resonance or appreciation at the time, it's like this kind of fabric that we can, like, wear later on. and they were really involved in the recovery community.

So- Mm-hmm ... that has a very expansive view of, like, your higher powers, you understand it. And I [00:08:00] sat in a lot of Al-Anon meetings as a kid, and AA meetings. And so this, like, orientation of, like, anyone can heal healing happens together. People can go through the worst things and do the worst things, but there's an invitation to come back, and the capacity of the human spirit to, like, be indomitable, basically, was just, like, front and center.

So I think those two influences were pretty strong. and I was always a very, like, whimsical, fairy kind of child. Like- ... making up stories and, like, talking to my imaginary friends. And so, yeah, spirit in that way. I think I just appreciated the, like, possibility and creativity of- Yeah ... all of life.

But in college I became more, like, classic evangelical Christian, which I then had to, like, deconstruct from, ' cause that was a very, like, rigid framework of the way the world is and who God is, and some are in, some are out, We know the limits and damage, really, of that worldview.

But [00:09:00] living in the Congo and meeting so many beautiful souls that a lot of Christian overlay just made no sense. And so it caused my spirit to really wrestle with that- and then kind of let that go and be in a bit of a Netherland of, like, okay, I think I believe in, like, the divine, but I don't know where that lives.

Is there, like, a framework, a belief system, people out there that, like, love, love all beings, love nature? No one is excluded. You don't have to believe the right thing. And then, yeah, Richard Rohr kind of came into my life, and actually a Congolese friend in the Congo handed me his book The Naked Now.

And I was 27, and it was my first invitation to, like, non-dual consciousness. turning point ... just explain 

Karen: that maybe for a moment. What does non-dual consciousness mean? 

Lindsay: So it's a philosophy really rooted in, like, Eastern tradition, but this idea that there is no binary.

There's no, good and bad, right and wrong. There is the [00:10:00] invitation, like, of yes and, really. 

Mm-hmm. And resisting that need we have in the West to, like, really categorize and, like, make hierarchies of meaning. 

 instead it really invites, that widening and expansiveness to love and accept all, including the most difficult to love and accept.

Robyn: Wow. Okay. So now we're back at 2020. and when you were talking about how you were feeling and you had been, I think, looking for more physical reasons, right? and you weren't finding the healing that you were needing in that way, in the more traditional sense.

Lindsay: So I was- Had a ton of doctors, really great ones rooted in Western medicine. And this is not in any way to disparage Western medicine, but there are limits, and the body is a holistic system. It is not a compartment. And it's just bewildering to be, like, with the doctor of, your neurologist, and then you're with, the rheumatologist, and then you're with the epidemiologist, and [00:11:00] then the endocrinologist, and you're, Well, okay, how does..."

No one's talking to each other. You have to be the one that's, like, putting these pieces together, but meanwhile I'm feeling really bad. And it just felt like this is never going to get to the bottom of what I have. Because it... if you got a broken leg or you have, like, a really clear thing, Western medicine is amazing, right?

All: Exactly. Yes ... but 

Lindsay: I ended up having an autoimmune condition. That's misfiring every system in the body, right? So what one view of medicine would wanna treat you with is just, might be counter to, like, what, this other part of the body needs. And so I felt like I was getting a lot worse, but spiritually I was, like, fixated. It made me very dense and, like, in the world of matter, right? Of like, my body, there's something wrong with it. Yeah. It's bad. Yeah. God's abandoned me. My body is a traitor. I felt like I started to even, like, get really confused in how I viewed myself. And now my mission is to make everything that is painful go away.

And I'm like, wait a second. Looking through a Buddhist lens, I'm [00:12:00] like, okay, no, suffering exists. There's no actually getting rid of. Is there another invitation here of, like, being with and opening to? And I felt like those are really two different paths, and they don't actually connect. So it was the kind of like, what if I open to it, actually, that kind of brought me out into nature.

Because it wasn't like I'm abandoning Western medicine, but I really felt like for my own mental health and soul, I couldn't just be obsessed with trying to fix myself. 

Robyn: cause you were doing it for quite some time there, and it wasn't working.

Yeah, exactly. So it's like, it's like, it's like going mad. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really feels like that. And there isn't... you know, our culture doesn't have, like, frameworks or language for this or, like, ways to support people like that, and there's so many of us, really. Mm-hmm. You know, just for example, migraine headaches are, like, one of the highest cost burden diseases in the whole world, Doctors don't even really understand why a migraine happens, how to help it, what to do.

What? And then people- [00:13:00] It is actually... 

Karen: It's unbelievable ... it's a chronic thing, right? Yes. Yeah. Well, and that are triggered by a million different things, right? 

Robyn: Yeah, and as you said, like, they don't totally understand 

Lindsay: Yeah. And so I think in the midst of that, my parents had moved to the valley in the high Rocky Mountains, the Roaring Fork Valley.

I started spending time here, and I... they just happened to live next to a wilderness area- Mm-hmm ... in this beautiful national forest. So I have to thank them really. I mean, they didn't mean to do it, that, in that specific way. Well, it feels divine to me. It feels like it 

Robyn: was all orchestrated in some way, that you- You can look back now and say- Mm

"Oh, okay, I get it" And, and 

Karen: that's always the way, right? You can't really know until you- Yeah ... look back. can you talk us through then what came next for you, and what was that turning point that made you realize that nature and trees specifically could be such a healer for you? Yeah, 

Lindsay: So during yeah, the period of feeling just very lost and [00:14:00] questioning maybe I'll never be able to make a film again, maybe I won't be able to finish my PhD, I had to pause it.

my cognitive capacity was, declining so rapidly that- Mm ... I had to really sit with who am I and what is my value as a human being, and would I still love myself? And of course, I wanted to say yes to that, but if I was honest, in my heart it felt, like, impossible to accept. But spending time outside with nature, I felt, like, seen in a way, and, like, held and accepted as I am or as I was becoming.

I felt like I was molting or you know, becoming that mush in the chrysalis as a caterpillar. but not knowing that a butterfly was on the horizon. Right. Yes. Like, just being in the mush phase. But I would go on these long walks in the winter, is kind of when it started. And you know, it's slow going in the winter.

You're, like, trudging through snow, and I just would walk for, like, hours out there. And one day I felt like I wanted to [00:15:00] pause. I think I'd been out there for, like, two hours. So I mean, I'd passed many, many, many trees, right? Up until this point. And then I just felt really something in my body was like, "Just stop here."

And I was up... there was, like, a little ridge, and there was three little aspens, a slope, and the river. Very humble. It's not like this was the most beautiful tree in the forest or the most phenomenal view I had seen, but it was just these three little trees. And I paused, and- Something happened there.

This, like, really deep opening. I felt like I had come home. I felt this deep sense of belonging. And because I had so much physical suffering, the opposite of that was so apparent. And so I think for, like, healthy people, sometimes it's harder to feel the subtle differences, 'cause it's so subtle.

But in sickness it was very obvious to me. I'm like, wow, all of a sudden, this sense of joy is coming in, this sense of, like, possibility, this sense of relief. even though nothing had [00:16:00] changed. But it felt like this relationship was, like, washing me with love. 

Robyn: And- Like you stepped into a portal.

it's like- Yeah. I mean- Yes ... and I know that e- you were able to then see that everywhere. Mm-hmm. But it's almost like- Yeah ... something happened at that moment. Yeah. 

Lindsay: It really feels like that. And I write about it in my book, but it- It feels... I just kind of asked, like, "Who are you? What are you?"

What is this?" And I felt like they were kind of like, "You are us." "Welcome home." Like, "You are a tree." "Learn from us." learning about your other birth basically is going to be your path of healing. But not as a destination, but as a participation back into your original belonging.

 and so I was like, "Okay." I don't know what that means. 

Robyn: But it feels better than I've felt. 

Lindsay: Yeah. But it feels really true. Yeah. Something felt really true. And just this also, this grief too of like, wow, what have I missed? Yes. Like, wait a second, there's [00:17:00] life everywhere? There's this multi-voiced world is always speaking, and I've just been, like, here in my head?

That's incredibly boring. Yes, yes. Like, so limited. 

Karen: I've told this story a million times about going to Sedona, one year after being, commuting into New York every day on the subway, and it being dark, and really never seeing the light of day except for maybe on the weekends- Mm

when I would go for a run in the woods, which is where I felt- drenched with rejuvenation. Yes. And I never really thought about why, but I remember being in Sedona and it had that same moment where it was like, oh my gosh, there's a whole planet out here. Yeah, yeah. And it literally, like you said, almost giving me this hug of remember.

Yeah, yeah. Remember you are of me. You're not of that. and having that moment and time to be able just to reconnect and stop the thinking, and stop the activity where it just was able to come to me. 

All: And it 

Karen: sounds like that's what happened- Mm-hmm ... to you. 

Lindsay: Yeah. And like- So what happened next?

[00:18:00] like I say that, like, the trees summoned me or seduced me. Mm. And I really believe that. There's like a principle of like erotic desire operating between the Earth and us. The Earth wants us. Mm. And the Earth is like calling to us and pulling us and drawing us. You know, why do some people like love an ocean or love trees or love a river?

It's like something... they're getting drawn. That's how I see it, like they're getting pulled. And so- 

Robyn: I just got the chills when you said that. I've never thought of it in that way, the way that you just put that. That is so true. 

Lindsay: Which makes it fun- Yeah ... 'cause then it's like, oh wait, there's a principle of pleasure and aliveness and vitality here that I could open to even more.

 and so I started kind of playing with that, you know, just like letting myself be drawn and then seeing what happened when I would listen to that and follow that impulse of desire. And this is a whole other conversation, but, you know, pleasure and desire is so like banished in the West. And I think it's really a pathway [00:19:00] both back to our connection to Earth and to collective liberation, because when people are asleep to our yes, then we're much more easily manipulated.

We're unclear about what we love, what we stand for, what we wanna protect, what we wanna defend who are our people and our creatures and our trees. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I think aliveness is a powerful, liberatory force actually. And the Earth, what better teacher than, than nature? 'Cause that's like their DNA at every moment of the day, and it's ours too, but we get confused.

Robyn: so when you are... you're standing there, you have this moment, do you feel like all of a sudden it was as if you tuned into like a radio station and you could hear things differently? just for those who- 

... 

Robyn: May not have, you know, have that experience. Yeah. 

Lindsay: So I write about this in the book as the language of sensation as our- way to talk to nature and for nature to talk to us.

And there's [00:20:00] something called interoception, which is our eighth secret sense. I say secret 'cause we just, most people don't know about it. It's not that secret. But ... you know, we have our five main senses, sixth sense proprioception, so where's our body in space? The seventh one is our sense of, like, balance and gravity, and then eight is our ability to tune in to our inner body.

 So there's- I love the way you 

Robyn: put that. I mean, I know it's, it's a thing, but people really don't know what that is. Yeah. 

Lindsay: Most people haven't heard the term. But You know, have you ever had that experience where you're like, "Oh my gosh, I think I've had to go to the bathroom for so long- ... and I just, like, ignored it?"

It's like that is our interoception, but we're, we've become really good at overriding it or, like, not hearing it. It's like temperature changes in the body, like tingling, pressure, buzzing, smoothness. And not mapping on necessarily to emotion. What does this mean? What do I feel? It's like, what is this sense?

 [00:21:00] And when we're in front of a tree, we have the opportunity to tune into that language, to get really quiet and receptive and attuned, and to hear from our inner body. And trees, I mean, all life, but trees emit electromagnetic fields. They emit sonic waves. Nice. So you can think of that as their communication.

Like, really there, there is a, a waveform coming off of their body that hits our body and interacts with our electromagnetic field and creates either coherence when you think of, noise-canceling headphones, I just thought this was so interesting, but when waveforms are coherent basically- they amplify.

Mm. And if they're dissonant, it flat lines. And so if you've ever been in a room and you see somebody that you aren't, like, particularly excited about, like, your energy kind of, like, sinks, versus, like, when you see your best friend, it's like something kind of, like, explodes, That there's, like, an energetic match, if you would just wanna think [00:22:00] of it that way.

And it's the same with nature. we get to, like, discern, where is that match happening and, like, what does that feel like, and what is the energy happening here? And like, letting kind of meaning drop away, but just being in this very embodied, like, primordial sense. And so then a whole language can open up.

 and so that's just, like, the language of sensation. But I have done now workshops all over the place, all over the world, and people do hear things. They hear phrases. They hear drops of wisdom. They hear direction. I just had someone at a workshop at a book event in London who raised her hand, and she was like, "I was at your tree workshop two years ago."

And the tree told me to move back to England. We were in France. And she's like, "I did, and then all of this has opened up in my life." And so I'm here to say, like- Wow ... the tree changed my life. 

Robyn: Wow. 

Lindsay: So what is going on there? Is it like are we making it up? Are we Well, I, 

Robyn: I s- there's so much to discuss.

and your book is so beautifully [00:23:00] written. it is a masterpiece, honestly. Aw. It really is. Yeah. 

All: Thank you. 

Karen: it very much... It's funny now, that we're talking to you, I feel like there's almost a channeling that's going on that you... I don't know if you channel the trees exactly, but it feels like there's a poetry even- Mm

in the way you speak. And I know you, love poetry anyway, but I felt that in, in the book. Mm. It just felt like a channel, but it also had an energetic frequency to it. Ooh. 

Robyn: It- I 

Karen: love to hear that ... so, 

Robyn: and what's, what's so incredible about the way that you structured the book is that you're able to tell your story.

You're able to tell, I think, the story of the Earth too in some ways. And you're able to help us forge a relationship, a better relationship- Mm ... an awakened relationship with nature. And speaking to what you're talking about and being able to understand or receive messages, I've always had a tree [00:24:00] in my yard, and I have...

 i'm blessed to have several in my yard. And there's one that I've always felt really drawn to, and I've always gone and actually hugged and- 

but I never... I could feel her, but I never- Yeah ... was really able to talk to her. Mm-hmm. And because of your book, I now have a name and actually a color and a feel and a- Oh, wow

and I feel like somewhat of a dialogue. And what is really cool, I'm going through kind of a challenging time in my life right now, and I can hear her, this tree- Mm ... whose, whose name she told me is Violet- 

and I can hear her when I'm not home. And I, wanna just speak to that too in- Because you talk about how you can have these relationships and you don't actually have to be physically in front of them- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah ... once you've established this relationship. 

Lindsay: Thank you for sharing that. That's so Um- Well, thank 

Robyn: you for, for teaching. And really, I, [00:25:00] this book is It's a combination of so much, and it is a teacher as well. Mm. And, and I wanna 

Karen: add, too, based on your earlier comment about the woman in your audience who said that she, you know, now kind of follows her tree language for people who might be like, "What are we talking about?" 'Cause we, we talk about this stuff all the time and we love it, but just to add, in your book, you have so much science in there- Mm-hmm

as well. Mm-hmm. Which really I think would help anyone who is trying to get their head around this whole idea and might feel like w- it's a little on the spectrum too far of the woo. Even though they- Yeah ... may feel better in, you know, taking a walk in the woods, they don't necessarily know how much science is really- Mm-hmm

 attached to the wisdom of trees and, and how they communicate with each other, as well as energetically with- 

Lindsay: Yeah. thank you for saying that. I had a real... ' Cause I had just finished my PhD thesis, And then I wrote this book, and I really wanted to, like, harvest the science and the research, but [00:26:00] repackage it completely in a way that- is heartfelt and embodied and- Yes ... but supportive, but not trying to prove with it. Because I think that's where I got alienated in my own- doctorate of science is, like, one way of looking at the world. It's a framework. It's not objective truth as such because indigenous knowledge systems, for example, who use storytelling, and circling, and talking to nature, that's also a way of knowing, and it's true too.

Mm-hmm. But it can't be proven in the same way with scientific methods. So I think just kind of letting ourselves be curious about many ways of knowing. But being oriented in the West, of course, I was like, "Okay, I need to share the science." 

Karen: and- But it's fascinating. Like, for anyone who, is interested, a lot of us are happy just to follow the woo path of it and just be inspired by the magic of it all.

But your ability to be able to weave in the [00:27:00] science along with it, I always feel like I'm learning things Yeah ... on this And you did it in such a way that didn't feel like you were inflicting the facts, or you were just doing it to kind of give yourself the credibility as you were storytelling.

It didn't feel that way at all. It was like, "And by the way, did you know?" You know, it was just a nice additive 

Lindsay: Thank you for saying that. That was, like, a risk as the writing style. Like, can I combine storytelling and science and this more poetic 

Karen: You did beautiful- Oh, that's 

Lindsay: great.

Karen: Yeah. Beautiful weaving 

Lindsay: together. Well, two things about that. One, I say in the book, and I really believe, I co-wrote this with the forest. They are the co-authors really. And I think that might be why that energy comes through, because every day I would be out on these long walks and feeling ideas, hearing things, kind of getting inspiration for what to write because I was out there with them.

And it wasn't just Lindsay's brain and heart. It really wasn't. I can't take credit. And, or, and I would get, like, stuck in a chapter and be like, [00:28:00] "I don't know. This doesn't really work," and I'd go on a walk, and then they would honestly solve it for me. it would just come in of like, okay, this is what to say next, or this is how to, like, solve that.

 So their energy, it felt like the most intimate apprenticeship to write this book because it put me out with them so much. Hmm. And very quiet and very, intimate. I don't know how else to say. I, like, grieved when the writing was done actually because it felt like, okay, am I still going to be as devoted to going out and listening

 It felt, like, so nice. I could just go out there and, like, be with them and not have to- I bet. Yeah. Not be 

All: working. 

Lindsay: Not have to, like, get anything. so it really felt important to me that, like, the rhythm of them was felt in the pages. So, I'm glad that came through.

 And the science is just so clear, so it's, g- good to see it as, like, a scaffolding, you know? Like, there was a study that shows that 60% of, the West's relationship to nature has declined in the last [00:29:00] 200 years. 

All: Oh, 

Lindsay: gosh. 60%. So that's just, like, an interesting kind of, thing to, to note. We also know that we're in a loneliness epidemic- and people are deeply struggling. So I see those two things as very connected. But yet usually when people talk about loneliness and through the mental health lens, it's really disregarding what our return to nature could do- Yeah ... to support coming out of that loneliness. And what if the Earth was our sacred family and could be a safe, secure attachment, and kind of help us find that belonging connection- that we're craving so much, and that's only getting more acute, right? With, like, AI and technology. and especially thinking about young people and the world that they're coming up into embodied, slow connection without pressure. I think that's something that is so beautiful about being with nature.

There's no expectation like there are in human relationships. That helped me feel so free. I'm like, "You don't [00:30:00] need anything from me. You accept me just as I am." It really feels like this unconditional love, but then with that, the invitation, if you're offering me all this love, then I wanna love you back, and that's the reciprocity piece of the relationship.

Not just one way, what do I get from nature, but how do I love nature, and how do I love the Earth in return? Yes. And then it's a joy. It's a joy. It's like a circular joy. It's not an obligation. 

Robyn: Wow. can we talk about when the actual healing process for you in terms of the physical along with the emotional?

Lindsay: Yeah. Because 

Robyn: when you were able to open up and start to connect in this- Mm-hmm ... deeper way, things clearly changed. 

Lindsay: Yeah. I will say, too, that my view of, like, emotion and body has changed so much. I really see them as- One and the same.

And a theorist named William James in the 1800s talked about sensations are [00:31:00] emotions, so the body is an emotional experience. So to meet those deep emotional needs could actually re- change the way the body experiences itself physically. Wow. And, Yeah ... we see that even with something like, phantom limb pain, let's say.

 Someone literally doesn't have an injury, but yet the brain is saying, " Danger," and creating pain. So the brain also has the ability to initiate an embodied experience of pain sensations, even if there's no source of it. And I'm not saying that I didn't have, like, an actual source of something. But I think the potential for transformation is just really unlimited when we, like, just get out of the material, reductionist view of the body.

So all that being said, we know trees give off phytoncides, [00:32:00] which are these regulatory basically like hormones that help regulate an immune system, increase our natural killer cells, which are super important for autoimmune, autoimmune pathology, and create better heart rate variability decrease cortisol, so, like, that's just like on a physical level.

I'm like, okay, there's a great link with autoimmunity there. And I think it was about, like, two years into this relationship and this unfolding and this, kinship really deepening that my body started progressively feeling better. I also had been, like, working on I had parasite, and there was other things that I was doing.

 But the biggest thing was that life came back. Mm. And this, like, desire and joy and yeah, acceptance too of what was happening, and this just broader kind of participation in the web of life. Like, that just, I just can't underemphasize how healing that is to know you're not alone [00:33:00] and to know you are part of this life system.

 oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. And that truth I felt like just started seeping into my cells. And autoimmune is so interesting 'cause it's like the cells are actually doing something damaging to the body. So I kind of had this question of, like, could they be retrain- reinvited into their loving function?

 Is there a way to like, help them remember that they don't need to harm me? Mm. And so I don't know. For those that, like, the symptoms haven't changed or the sickness hasn't changed, I don't want to put any burden on someone of, like, if you just try harder, if you just do this it'll change.

It's mysterious, and so much compassion and just empathy for those that are living in this place of pain or confusion. But I will say I deeply believe that even if it doesn't get fixed, there can be shifts. Mm. And those shifts are not small. That can be the difference between life and [00:34:00] death for someone.

That can be the difference between joy and sorrow. So I believe that with everything in me. And I believe that if we're still alive, if we're still alive, then life is trying to live through us. 

And our cells know life. That is their function. . 

All: And 

Lindsay: I want to welcome that life. And so being with nature just, like, reminds us of that. And, like, we're looking at life, and it's just, like, a rewiring of, life, And of course there's death and there's this whole cycle that happens, but in terms of just this frame of healing. But okay, really fast.

To get to the point. No, I 

Karen: mean, no, it's inspiring. And it is, it's again, it's this poetry that's coming out of you that's just so beautiful. 

Robyn: Well, and I will say that this book will change the way you, you navigate the planet. it will wake you up in a way that I certainly needed.

Karen and I, ever since reading it, we have talked about the fact that we truly Walk out our doors now and it's different. Like, when we're- we both are people who [00:35:00] have always loved to go on long runs or walks and be in nature in some way. Trees very much call to me. I know water calls to Karen.

And she goes on long runs and, and walks as well. And now They're really different. When we go on our, whatever our trek is for the day we're noticing, we're talking we're seeing what nature in itself, whether it's trees, whether it's flowers, whether it's the wind, what are they saying?

And- Mm ... I'm telling you, you you could be in your car and start to think about things differently. It's just- Mm-hmm ... changed everything. Mm. 

Karen: Well, and also you help us understand the, the why of the experience, Lindsay. Because I think anybody who's listening or watching can, can relate to, "Oh, yeah, if I go for a long walk in the woods, it feels good.

I feel better." But you're explaining the actual relationship and the energetic frequency of, and how almost as I'm listening to you talk about [00:36:00] it, it's like the trees can almost be a prescription that you can write yourself. Yes. 

All: Yes. 

Karen: and it may have differing effects on everyone, you know- Mm

depending, like you were saying before, but why not? It's free. It's part of us. It's all ours. Yeah. And I, I think why not? And I, I just think about too, you know, we love that relationship between science and spirituality. And I'm sure that if you measured your, your frequency after a walk in the woods the change just in energa- energy that you have would be palpably different.

And I know like even if you go down to the chakra, like your body is- Yeah ... is absorbing and rebalancing in a way that it doesn't even know that- ... just naturally doing it. 

Lindsay: Yes. Exactly. It's just coming home- to our original design really. And you could think of this through the lens of stress as well.

Like, we know how stress wreaks havoc on the body. And so by spending time with the trees, with nature, and this sense of peace and calm, [00:37:00] that is really powerful. We know stress is, responsible for creating cardiovascular disease, can drive cancer, you know? So this isn't like a small thing of like woo-woo land, to your point.

 I think the studies really indicate how potent this could be if it was really looked at as a serious kind of like mental health intervention and, physical health intervention. there has been, kind of like work to create, like prescription, like nature RX.

All: Mm-hmm. Yes, Like, 

Lindsay: doctors should be able to say, like, " Go spend 15 minutes outside," Instead of, "Here's a prescription," or something. Or along with. Yeah. Exactly. And so I just can't believe the medicine cabinet that is- Yes ... all around us. 

Robyn: Well, and you've talked about both your grief and love for this planet.

And how do we hold both, without being overwhelmed, and what can we do to contribute more love and because [00:38:00] of all we're receiving? 

Lindsay: I just had a really powerful experience. I was in England for my book tour, and I went and sang with the nightingale in Sussex, which was so powerful and connects to your question.

 a of mine, this folk singer, Sam Lee, guides people into the night to listen to this nightingale. They sing only at night. They come to England from West Africa for a few weeks a year to mate, so they're singing their song of love into the night, and 95% of the nightingale is already lost. That population is already gone- Wow

because of global warming and changing habitat. So we have 5% of these birds left. Within our lifetime might be the last time anyone ever gets to hear a nightingale. Going out to hear this bird was one of the most powerful experiences I've ever had, because it felt like listening to love, li- listening to an actual song of love, and also knowing that they're disappearing was so much grief at the same time.

I just wept for [00:39:00] hours sitting out there in this field. And then Sam and this other musician, like, sang alongside the bird. Oh. Like improv-ized. It was really holy. But it did something deep of, like, opening up even more love actually for the whole Earth, and this beauty of getting to just listen so deeply and companion, even as, like, the Earth disappears or we lose some biodiv- so much biodiversity, or wildfires come.

 my invitation is to not close off to that, because it's by opening and hearing and listening and seeing with sober, clear heart that then this, like, wellspring of love gets to come in. Mm-hmm. And this transformation of ourselves can take place. which is so much the work of, you know, Joanna Macy, which I just wanna name her.

She was the lady of deep ecology in Buddhism. She died last summer at, I think, the great age of 94 years old. Wow. A lifetime of environmental activism. But she really believed that [00:40:00] if we don't learn how to grieve, we will never learn how to love the Earth. 

 So don't be scared of your griefs.

They are painful and hard to hold, but the Earth is also there to help us hold it, too, which is, like, wild. It is. 

Karen: one thing that just struck me though, Lindsay, that you were saying that may be a comfort in a way is I feel like we're all nightingales a w- in a way, that we are all here to kind of sing our song- of love to the planet. If we accept the invitation to do so. None of us are here forever. but we have an opportunity in our own way inspire- Mm ... each other and even ourselves. And in essence what you're doing. You're, you're singing and you're sharing this story.

You're sharing your story. You're sharing what you've learned about the trees in a way that people can carry that with them. And like Robyn said earlier, it changes. It changes. Mm-hmm. Just like that experience changed you- Yeah, yeah ... you're changing others- Oh ... in, in that way as well. Oh, It's so 

Robyn: true. How [00:41:00] can people who- really feel disconnected with nature, what would you say is the first thing that they can do to start to reconnect, both with nature and then ultimately then with themselves? 

Lindsay: Yeah, so two things. One, well, each chapter of the book has a body practice and a tree practice, so hopefully that's supportive in this quest.

but first thing, I mean, I always just say find or allow a tree to really find you in your neighborhood or somewhere where you can visit regularly. And spend 15 minutes with that creature, with that being consistently, you could just say over like 10 days. Just make it like a c- contained experiment and see what happens.

 Without an agenda, with the intention of just being with and getting to know from a relational lens. And see what unfolds. And I'm never disappointed by what I hear when people come back from just that very simple invitation. [00:42:00] And then with the body, I think beginning to slow down enough to hear from within.

 And something I say in the book is, if you take anything away from this, slow down and then slow down more. 

Robyn: Yes, you do say 

Lindsay: that. Because nature is operating on a different timescale. Tree time is not human time. So if we want to know trees, like, we have to also be willing to kind of slip out of our, human time a little bit.

Robyn: And I feel like it is so easy to be distracted these days, right? Like, more and more and more and more. Yeah. It's easy to be distracted. And yet I think what we're finding is that we're all craving. I look at my daughter who's 18, craving being outside and craving- Mm ... not being on a screen.

Karen: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I feel that way every, Robyn knows this, every weekend I have to shut it down. I have to, and I have to be outside. I don't even know that it's the [00:43:00] need for nature. It's just I know how I feel- Right ... when I'm out there and I, and away, away from this. Mm. Mm. I, would also encourage people and I think you say it in the book too go by yourself.

 Don't go with someone else. Allow yourself to be alone in it Yeah ... and to ask, the tree, I, I always say, like, ask it its name. And- just listen. cause that will be a first line of communication. And once you kind of feel like you might know the name of the tree, then you have established the relationship- 

Lindsay: Yeah

right there. I love that so much. 

Robyn: Well, and it reminds me too- So- Karen, I remember when Karen brought up her time in Sedona, and she came back, and It had really helped to begin, I think, some, a transformation for Karen. Mm-hmm. And I remember that you had met with somebody in Sedona who reminded you that even though you you were leaving and you were going back home, Sedona would stay with you.

Mm-hmm. And that energy could stay with you. And the wind that, and the conversations that you had [00:44:00] with the land there- 

could stay with you, and that if you needed that rejuvenation, remember that the wind and the trees- ... and everything else were all talking- 

All: Mm-hmm ... and 

Robyn: only supporting you.

And, and, and, so when I was reading Heartwood, it reminded me very much of that time- Mm ... which was several years ago. I just I loved that reminder, but then- Mm ... really it was then taking it to another level, because the way that, Lindsay, you write, you really are paying attention to every leaf- Mm-hmm

and strand of grass, and o- everything. And now when I'm looking as I walk around, you will start to notice and be like, "Wait, is that tree waving at me?" Yeah, 

Lindsay: exactly. Exactly. yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, and 

Karen: I dare say I think that nature, trees in general remind us that we were here before.

Yeah. They... That's the consistency. I think that's why- Mm ... so a lot of people do love the mountains or the ocean, because [00:45:00] chances are they may have walked by the same ocean or they've been connected to the ocean before, and I think that's the other thing that nature reminds us of, is that- Oh, yeah

as much as we, we've been, we've walked this path before. 

Lindsay: Oh, yes. Think about that elementally. I mean, our bodies are made of recycled carbon- mostly and a bunch of other minerals that are from the Earth or from the asteroids or from a star that came here. Like, we could've been ocean. Yeah. I could've been that tree. Yes. Truly. That's right. Like, what's in your body. That's right. That's so true. Yeah. Like, that's actually just biological fact.

Robyn: Yeah. Love that. Yeah. And so , thank you for reminding all of us.

Thank you for giving us a guide to truly reconnect, appreciate and as you said we are all one. Truly, yes, energetically we are, and we are with the Earth. Mm-hmm. We have to start... I think this is a call to really- ... restart this [00:46:00] relationship in a way that most of us have not had in our lives.

We just have not this kind of language to understand and develop- ... a stronger relationship, and then heal. That's the other part, is that this can be part of your healing journey. 

Lindsay: and healing ourselves and the planet. Yes. Because it's all connected, and a forest of course teaches us that, right?

There's no king of the forest. There's no individual. There's a network, a community of life, and so we get to be a part of that too. And so it awakens this beautiful mutual care and compassion for all life, and I think we need that so much right now. we are each other's keeper, and we get to be the ones to bring life and flourishing and love as wide as we possibly can.

Karen: Well, I also think it's a reminder to people that no matter where they are in their life, that they aren't alone in that sense. Yes. That they always have this as a resource. And it can be as healing as anything else and it's a simple [00:47:00] connection that we can all make just by taking one step out the door 

Robyn: And it doesn't mean that you have to live in a forest.

You can find this anywhere. exactly. 

Karen: Oh, so beautiful and so simple, and something that like as Robyn said, is gonna stay with us forever. So thank you for- Well, thank you ... inspiring us with all these great words and this beautiful book and this conversation. 

Lindsay: Thank you.

Thank you 

Robyn: for having me. Thank you, Lindsay. Thank you. And everyone listening, please go grab your copy of Heartwood. You can find that wherever you would pick up your books. 

Lindsay: Yes. And recommend an indie bookstore, of course. But bookshop.org is great because it connects you to independent bookstores all over the country.

So it's sort of an Amazon of indie bookstores. 

Robyn: Ooh, I love that. Love that. And what are other ways that people can find you, Lindsay? 

Lindsay: Follow me on Instagram, Lindsay Loren, two Ns. I post a lot about upcoming book tour stuff. And then the Heartwood Institute. I am starting an institute out of the book, and we're kind of in the early [00:48:00] stage, but there you can see our work on with public art and rites of rivers and storytelling and culture change that, that we're working on.

So And I offer retreats throughout the year, so if you want to come and practice with me, would love that. And you can find my newsletter on that website. 

Robyn: Great, and we'll have everything in our show notes as well. Thank you so much, Lindsay. Thank you so much. We look forward to more conversations.

Yes, please. Honestly, I think we could talk to you for days. 

Lindsay: I know. I can't wait for that 

Robyn: too. Love it. Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much.