Seeking Center: The Podcast

Sufi Psychology: The Ancient Practice That Heals Burnout - Episode 192 (Dr. Saloumeh DeGood)

• Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Dr. Saloumeh DeGood • Season 2 • Episode 191

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Have you ever felt like you're giving so much of yourself that you’ve lost touch with who you really are?

We’re diving into a soul-nourishing conversation with Dr. Saloumeh DeGood — licensed clinical psychologist and President of the Sufi Psychology Association.

Saloumeh bridges ancient Sufi wisdom with modern psychology to help us understand and reconnect with our true essence. If you’ve been feeling overwhelmed, burned out, or spiritually disconnected, this episode might just be the balm your soul’s been seeking.

We explore:

  • What Sufism actually is (hint: it’s more than Rumi + whirling dervishes!)
  • How Sufi Psychology differs from traditional Western therapy
  • The deeper meaning of self-knowledge and how it leads to transformation
  • A powerful, heart-centered Sufi meditation technique
  • Why burnout isn’t just emotional — it’s spiritual disconnection
  • How to return to your true self beneath all the layers of thought, emotion, and identity

Plus, you'll hear how Saloumeh’s work helped frontline caregivers during the height of COVID, and how her spiritual approach is healing minds and hearts around the world.

This episode is your invitation to pause, breathe, and remember the deeper you.

MORE FROM DR. SALOUMEH DEGOOD

Visit seekingcentercommunity.com for more with Robyn + Karen and many of the guides on Seeking Center: The Podcast. You'll get access to live weekly sessions, intuitive guidance, daily inspiration, and a space to share your journey with like-minded people who just get it.

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. Have you ever felt you're giving so much of yourself that there's barely anything left, like you've lost touch with who you really are and you're not quite sure how to get it back? We've all been there. That's why we can't wait to introduce you to Saloumeh [00:01:00] She's a licensed clinical psychologist and the president of the Sufi Psychology Association Saloumeh brings together ancient Sufi wisdom with modern psychology in a way that's truly transformative.

 What is Sufism, and what is Sufi psychology? We're exploring it all, how it differs from Western approaches and how it can help you reconnect to your essence body, mind, and spirit. Plus, you'll learn about a powerful form of Sufi meditation that's all about coming back to your center.

has helped thousands, including caregivers at the height of COVID. She knows what it takes to help someone keep going and reconnect to themselves. If you're feeling burned out or overwhelmed and have been searching for a practice that combines spirituality with practical self-care, this conversation may be exactly what you need.

Let's dive in. Hi, Salima. Hi, Karen. 

Karen: Hi, Hi, I feel burnt out and overwhelmed. Let me just start there.

 

Karen: For those of us who wanna know what is Sufism and for [00:02:00] somebody who's new to it, how do you describe it?

Saloumeh: So it's interesting ' cause I think when people think of Sufism, you've heard of it in terms of typically Rumi the poet. Yes. He's a 13th century Sufi poet. Or you've heard of whirling dervishes is what people think of because that's yes, very 

Robyn: much. 

Saloumeh: And so I don't think people know as much about what it actually is . So Sufism is best described as it's a discipline of self-knowledge. So it's the path of self-knowledge., What's fascinating is, I think everybody is constantly looking for this.

They're looking for themselves, and we do it in all sorts of different ways. We will. Seek out psychics to tell us about something, right? Or we'll seek out all sorts of different experiences to tell us about ourselves, self-help, books, therapy all of these wonderful tools that we have as ways to connect with ourselves a little bit more to understand ourselves a little bit more.

 The whole wellness scene is even about that, right? Understanding our physical body and how do I get it to, be more efficient or [00:03:00] whatever it is. Sufism this discipline of self-knowledge has been around for thousands of years. So it has been there always, and it has been very practical.

It's a practical method to uncover and excavate who you truly are. Now, I think I have to preface this by saying what we typically think of when we think of ourself or our identity is usually, maybe like a couple steps deeper in terms of our physical body. So we have our physical body, we have maybe our thoughts, we have our emotions our personality, And all of those. And sometimes we think our personality is maybe that identity of who we are. Like, I'm a good person, that's maybe a couple of layers deeper in the onion, but that's truly not yet your true identity is that part of you that has remained and stable.

Even when your personality has changed, when your body's changed your emotions and your thoughts have change. It's the part of you that is connected [00:04:00] as we would say in Sufism with all of existence. It is the all the one. We can't say there is this one entity, this one existence, and then there's me over here.

 So there's only a one is what would be the true belief in Sufism is that there's one, and as such, we are part of the one. Now we've got all these other layers to us because we're in this physical world. But Sufism is about connecting you to that very truth of your existence. 

 

Robyn: i'm trying to think about it even as on a soul level or speaking of the soul. To me it's even broader than that. Would you say it is connected to. What we might speak of as soul 

Saloumeh: one of the very early lessons in Sufism is that words do not convey meaning.

 And that becomes so clear when I have these discussions because it became clear to me early on in my career that what I talk about might be different than what someone else is meaning to talk about. But we're using the same words. I guess it depends on how we're defining [00:05:00] soul, right?

Yes, 

Robyn: I would agree with 

Saloumeh: that. I think in terms of Sufism least this is all my understanding of Sufism wanna clarify that it's such an individual journey for each person within, and the soul is almost one of the almost like the middleman between your physical dimension. includes your thoughts and includes your emotions.

Even though we think those they're not touchable. They feel like deeper somehow. But those are still part of the physical dimension. Your body, thoughts, emotions, social life, And then there's the oneness, And the soul at least my understanding is that middle part that connects, that's that connecting point.

 And so it might be the closest point that we have to understanding the existence, Because we are limited, we're bound by our limited mind and our limited experiences in this world. So how can I even begin to fathom or understand something deeper? I can get glimpses of it and touch it.

But yes, I think it's through the soul would be the connecting point. And Sufism, it's actually through the heart. [00:06:00] The heart is the center. The seat of your soul center, of your connection to all of existence. 

Karen: I love this already. I just have to say because it is a unifier, If you really believe in that, everyone always says that we are all love.

That is our essence. So I love the fact that Sufism. belief is heart-centered. And I also love the fact that it unifies us all because we all come from love. If we are all love, and then it's those layers that you're talking about of our soul and our identities and our personalities and all the other things that kind of form the.

outside of ourselves, but inwardly we're all kind of this essence of love. That's so beautiful. 

Saloumeh: It's funny you say that because oftentimes Sufism is referred to as the way of love. 

Robyn: that's beautiful and I really did not understand The principles in that way. Yeah. As you said, personally always think about whirling dervishes, Why is that? Why do you believe that is what comes to mind for many [00:07:00] people when they think of Sufism? 

Saloumeh: I think that's what's had the most exposure, , so Sufism is oftentimes called a mysticism, It's got like this mystical, like woo, what is this kind of component, And we are naturally, I think so drawn to these types of things, I think this is why I was just talking to a friend the other day about energy and people are so fascinated with energy and they're always like, tell me about energy.

I wanna learn about energy. Whereas. From the, it's part of you, it's not really something super mystical and whoa, what is this? It is very much, it's another sense of ours. It's another component of ours. but when things seem mysterious and we don't understand them, we tend to really gravitate towards 'em.

Probably why We all seek self knowledge. And you've got a whole seeking center, it's something that clearly there's something there that we don't understand and therefore it seems mysterious and unknown. Now the whirling Dervishes or Rumi are ones that have just had way more exposure. And I think people look at that with awe.

 And Rumi, his poetry pulls at [00:08:00] something that's really inherent in all of us. And I think we tap into that with him. 

Robyn: when we are programming a lot of our newsletter content or daily inspiration. Rumi is probably the most quoted within the Seeking center world.

There's just so much wisdom there. 

Saloumeh: absolutely. it's interesting. So we're talking about this oneness that you were just talking about. And it's probably worth mentioning that, Sufism is a it's oftentimes called the inner dimension of Islam. And so it is connected, and I think that's important because a lot of Rumi's poetry also it has these qualities of Islam, but a lot of times they've been taken out of that context for the West.

So you'll find some of the interpretations are a little off, but I do want to emphasize that because you don't wanna forget where something is coming from and what its background is because then it gets watered down and it gets further and further from its reality. 

 However, 

 because as I mentioned, Sufism is this internal.

Journey of [00:09:00] self knowledge, when I say the word Islam, it is not typically what is thought of in mainstream, which is an organized religion, group of people on a specific path, Like it is, and it isn't, it's such an individual journey and, modern day, what we see in most of the religions is they were also a way of life and of the land. This has been the reality of Christianity, of Islam, of all, the different religions, is that they were also political in that sense, sufism has always remained outside of that.

And so for it, it comes back to the heart of Islam, which is submission to the existence, to the oneness of existence. That is what Islam actually means, is submission. And so through Sufism, when you're talking about that inner dimension of Islam, you're talking about a submission to the oneness of existence and for each person to.

 Find that within themselves and how to connect to that truth of who they are, which [00:10:00] is connected to this oneness of existence. 

Robyn: I really appreciate you expanding on that because I'm sure there are people who may understand where it comes from and not understand how that works together.

So 

Karen: And not knowing is it a religion, is it a practice? that's so helpful. 

Saloumeh: Yeah. Sufism is not a religion, it's a discipline, it's a school. When you go to a Sufi, so the school I am a student of is the MTO, Shadi school of Islamic Sufism.

 And it is a school, there is a teacher, you have homework. A lot of it is internal. The belief at this school in particular is that you are. Study. You're the laboratory and you're the researcher. And so a lot of it is what you learn. Go and implement it within yourself so that you will truly know if it's real versus somebody has said it.

Believe it and follow it out of belief, It's about experience and not belief. 'cause that's the only time you will truly know [00:11:00] something. And Sufism is all about Knowing that oneness within. and that means you have to say, yeah, I don't really experience it that way, or that might not be for me.

And be okay with really being on your path, whatever that means. 

Robyn: Thank you for clarifying all of that. So then, what is Sufi psychology and how does that differ from traditional western psychology? 

Saloumeh: so you know, I got my doctorate in clinical psychology, went the whole sided doctorate of psychology and a postdoc after and everything.

And alongside of that, I've always been since I was little, a student of Sufism. And so it just felt really I understood, i'm looking at the human being, but I'm understanding this deeper part of the human being. the word psychology means psyche, the soul. Science of the soul.

It was originally the science of the soul is what it actually means. Now what happened is over time in an effort to become more scientific we relied on kind of the scientific method to understand the human being because those are the things that in our [00:12:00] modern day science, we can measure, right? We can measure the physical body, we can measure the effects of your thoughts and your emotions and behaviors.

And so because we are trying to measure and become more scientific in our understanding of the human being, Western psychology is very much the human being is, their behaviors, their thoughts, their emotions. Typically it's usually referred as the bio-psychosocial model and then themselves, socially.

 now we know that. Anybody who works with patients, you know that there's something deeper to them than just this workings of the brain, And the body, like we know there's something deeper. So we've got like humanistic psychology, which is yeah, there's something more soul-based, that's there.

Sufi psychology takes these teachings and beliefs and practices of, and combines it with modern psychology and the way that we view it. we have in Sufism we talk about how there's two dimensions of our being. Now I'm talking about this in terms of dimensions, but I wanna emphasize that this is just for the purpose [00:13:00] of talking about it.

But in reality, we're one, right? We're not two, but we are one. But there's two dimensions. There's the physical dimension, which is what we usually talk about, which I just mentioned. Your body, your thoughts, your brain, your emotions, your interactions with the world. Our social relationships, these all fluctuate and change.

These are all limited. This is what we typically have a handle on. And then there's the spiritual dimension, the part of us where. We don't even know how this works, where we're like distraught and sad and yet somehow there is strength that emerges from us to push through. Where creativity, you come to draw something and you, create something absolutely brand new that's not coming from your brain.

'cause your brain just gathers data. It's something completely brand new, The spiritual dimension is the other part. So in Sufi psychology we use Western. Psychological methods to balance the physical dimension, but we also use Sufi [00:14:00] practices, Sufi concepts to, I'm not a spiritual guide, a Sufi teacher, my goal isn't to tell people who they are, but to remind them that there's something more for them to then seek.

 So in doing that, is attempting to balance the two. 

Robyn: to me, you would hope that when you are , on a journey of trying to better understand or navigate life, that you are coming at it, I know. That's why we have Seeking Center. You wanna come at it from these two different.

Places as you just Yeah, were talking about because which then equal your oneness. I just think it's so interesting that so many of us haven't heard of sufi psychology, which is why we're Talking about it today. 

Karen: It seems like you're leaving such an important part. Of the person off the table.

If you're just focusing on the experiences and the emotions, there's this whole other dimension, as you have said, that is not being addressed in the traditional psychology. So it [00:15:00] feels like you need both really to get the full picture. 

Saloumeh: You think about it this way, it depends on where the person is at, If somebody comes to me and they are struggling with, panic attacks and anxiety, That's very much at this physical dimension. It's their emotions are up, their thoughts are going right. Their body is now completely in disarray. So it would make sense that modern psychology says okay.

How do we cure? We've got this anxiety to, so what do we do with that? Let's give them coping skills. Let's teach them how to, reframe the thoughts in their minds, right? And in order to quiet the system, quiet, the thoughts, all of that. But I think I. We can't really expect modern psychology to then direct someone to something deeper because that's not something that's been, we don't have the tools to measure it.

How do you measure the soul or the spirit? There are no tools. So how can they accept that as being truly something of someone's 

Whereas these ancient traditions, they've been around before, we needed tools to measure. The tools were let's develop them internally, and [00:16:00] then you discover it and you have the tool on your own.

 So I think it is what it is and not everybody even in is interested in this. I agree with that. 

Robyn: I think that is true. And you do have to be ready and open enough to really talk about this other side of ourselves that, we all on this. Call or on this podcast, we all acknowledge that.

That other side. But yeah, I think that's very true and I think it's really interesting because you have the background of both. 

Saloumeh: Yeah, and I'll give this example 'cause this is probably one of my favorite. Examples of a client I was working with, but she was a young girl. She was 15 maybe younger 14.

it was few years ago. And they had seen numerous. Therapist and psychologist, and she had an extensive history of self-injury, suicidality very depressed. She was very isolated. She's had unique interests that people her age typically didn't have.

And she felt very alone. And so we started working together and maybe about six months in [00:17:00] at this point, she hadn't self-injure for six months and she hadn't had a suicidal ideation in six months, at least not in the same way. And she's doing great. And it was suicide awareness at school.

 And so part of suicide awareness week at school is they give questionnaires measuring people's depressive levels And so she takes the questionnaire and she scores off the charts on everything. And so they call her down into the the therapist's office at school. And she says, are you okay?

 I'm so worried about you. Are you okay? and my client's oh yeah. She's my thoughts are just they go down this path, especially when I'm feeling lonely and blah, blah, blah. So my thoughts go there and yeah, my emotions get sad sometimes and but I know it's gonna pass.

So I'm just I'm keeping with my art and I'm doing my this as this kind of comes and goes, and this wave will pass, and so the therapist was like, do you have a therapist? And she said, yes. She said, can I call her? And she called me and she's is she okay?

And I said, yeah she's fine. What happened with her, or in her case, is [00:18:00] one, there's the hormonal piece. Your emotions are all over the place. You're feeling all sorts of things, right? She had gotten to a place, which was so impressive. I think even for me, for everyone where she was viewing herself in this way of my thoughts aren't me, right?

I know what my thoughts are and they are in reaction to X, Y, and Z, and they're telling me this, and this. My emotions, which are also a part of me, but not me are feeling this, and this. They're this gonna come and go and this is gonna pass and I'm gonna do what I'm doing right now until.

 The subside, what an incredible concept to be able to connect with yourself in such a way that you recognize that your thoughts are not you. 

Robyn: It's like she read Eckhart Tolle and Michael Singer that age 

Karen: and understood, or she worked with a really good counselor. Say that. That's true.

Saloumeh: Wow. It was a lesson for me though, in. You know the measures, right? So the measures that we use in Western psychology are looking at your thoughts and your emotions, To determine depression. So [00:19:00] when they look at that, they're like, oh my gosh, she has these thoughts and these emotions, therefore she's depressed.

But you talk to her and she doesn't, she's relying on something a little deeper to understand her experience of life. 

Robyn: I would imagine that the therapist at school was floored and maybe was calling you after that phone call.

Saloumeh: Listen, I do not take credit for that. That was all her stuff.

I was as much stunned and, like taking notes for my own journey, watching her. 

Robyn: Wow. That's really cool. And , why do you think many of us have become disconnected from our own essence, that oneness in this modern world?

Saloumeh: I think it's natural. Listen. When we look at like the story of us, And we're only picking up the story halfway through right where we're born. we didn't just come to existence here. We're picking up the story here and.

Thrown into a new world, right? a limited world, we don't know things. Babies trying to figure it out, when they're first learning that they can make their limbs move and they're so [00:20:00] fascinated, That's just physically, but also think about mentally, like we don't know how to think of things, how to connect.

So what do we do? We do. The only thing that's natural, which is we rely on a parent to tell us what is what. How to determine things, how to make sense of the world. We rely on our society to tell us good, bad wrong, how we're supposed to live. We don't know really. And on top of that, our brain, and this is, I think the thing that people don't take into consideration, we've never learned, especially in our culture, we have never learned how to control the brain.

So for us it's just this incredibly powerful, organ. what the brain does and is the entire job of the brain, is just to take in as much information as possible, store it, and then as you encounter anything, it digs through what you've already gathered and says, oh, this is what this is.

And then looks for risk and tries to predict and keep you safe. This is the purpose of the brain. So this is why it's so hard to break out of what you've and what you've grown up with, If you grew up [00:21:00] with a really bad experience with a dog, for example, next time you see a dog, your brain is like, Nope.

I know what this is. This is going to hurt you. Alarm, So I think all of this is natural for growing and for being in this new world is that we do this and. There were people who connected us or told us how to connect back or there is this other part I think it makes sense that we would be here.

And then part of it is now we're digging through and trying to figure out what's what. And it's hard to do when the other part of the human experience that I think is so powerful are emotions. Emotions really move us. They feel scary, they feel drastic, and so it's hard to move past and go a little deeper when you are really acting on emotion.

So we're avoiding the bad constantly because it feels so bad and we're trying to seek out the good, 'cause we're just reacting to these stimuli. 

Karen: And we're also not [00:22:00] taught any of this. Robin and I say that all the time. We always learn so much about how there's so much knowledge and tools that we could use especially like as children, we're not taught that we have an essence that we are one.

most of us Don't learn that. our experiences that are all our outside world. Influence us, and that's our point of reference for everything. If we could just start with what you're talking about, I think it would be a much more clear path for all of us to follow 

Saloumeh: perhaps.

I think the other thing too is I wonder if it's even possible because I keep thinking about this a lot in terms of my own experience growing up. I can tell you that part of youth is, there is an incredible amount of and energy and just wanting to experience and know, And honestly I just was like out in the world trying to experience as much as I can know as much as I can that you know, and to turn inward. and I grew up in this school, but trying to turn inward for me has always been [00:23:00] such a challenge and such a battle because there's FOMO and I wanna go, right?

I'm so physically and externally focused. I don't know. What it would look like. And I think we start with where we are and where we are is okay. It's exactly where we are. There's nothing wrong with that. And so how do we uncover and move forward?

Robyn: And just speaking of you growing up, how. Did Sufism integrate into your life?

Saloumeh: Yeah one of the things that is always taught in Sufism is it's not anything to be born into religion or paths or spirituality is not something that is just handed to you. It's a path you have to, I always think about it. I can't remember. I think it's a Sufi poet who said it. I can't remember who, I read it somewhere where he said the ash or ashes are always bragging about , their father, the fire.

Like this notion that just because I mean it doesn't even matter. Your parents could be someone's spiritual and great and whatever. It doesn't translate to you being that 

Robyn: I couldn't agree more. That's really how I [00:24:00] live my own life. 

Saloumeh: So 

Robyn: many are not taught 

Karen: that. 

Robyn: No, and I love that you're saying that. 

Saloumeh: Yeah, it's a even playing field, we're all in our own boats going about it. So I wasn't born into a family that practiced Sufism. My father was a student of the school.

I started attending the school when I was about seven. So I, was a meditation baby, right? I would take these classes and do these practices. That was always natural to me. I will say, I think Sufism has impacted me in a lot of different ways. one of the things just saying meditation makes me think of, I never was into drinking drugs, any of that.

I didn't like something outside of me altering my. My experience, right? if I'm gonna have a altered experience, I want it to be self-induced. I want it to come from within and not from without. So I think that has always been a big part a lot of within, Sufi talk. One of the hardest things within the lessons is, as I mentioned, we gather everything that we've heard from the [00:25:00] world and we essentially put it in a.

Bag and we throw our name on it and that becomes our identity and who we are. And so part of it was, working on and continuing to take those out, right? And face them. And this doesn't suit. This isn't me. This is someone else. And one thing I learned really early on, and I'll never forget this, it was a time.

, And this is just to show an example of this. I was going through a particularly difficult time in my life and I was really sad. I was in the airport, it was a red eye flight coming from California to Chicago. I was all in my feelings. I had the glasses on, sitting there crying in the airport, like real dramatic.

 And I felt really sad. And I remember. little corner of my mind really slight corner. There was a little bitty voice that believed that if I am truly sad and if I'm really, heartbroken, I am sad. Something is gonna save me from this. I truly believed that. Like I believed that and I remember that moment, like I caught it, right?

This thing happens all the time within me. I just never knew it [00:26:00] and I caught it and I was like. Where am I getting this? Do I have experience? How do I know that something's gonna save me? I remember, and then all of a sudden I realized all the TV shows, all the chick flicks, all the cartoons, everything.

We've seen, damsel in distress, someone's crying, enter k night, on a shining armor, white knight, right? Or white horse rescuing you like This has been a part of what my belief system was, that if I am just really sad and I'm broken something the clouds are gonna part, I will be saved and.

 That moment of recognizing that this is not a thing, this is something I've gathered, even stories of miracles and salvation, right? Even those I'm like, this are all things I've gathered and I was hoping and I'm really hanging on to, because the alternative is, it's up to me.

 And so it occurred to me that oh gosh if anything's gonna happen, I have to do it like I have to do. Do it. Not anyone else. It has to be me. And so then I cried 10 times harder because I was like, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. [00:27:00] I don't feel equipped to navigate life or anything.

Up until now I was relying on like a God or someone to come and rescue me and this is on me now, right? And so it was a three hour flight from LA to Chicago and I said. You have three hours to feel sorry for yourself and to really object to this and to cry it out and get it out. but when you land, like you have no choice.

 There's no other option. Put on your shoes and let's go. And I did. I spent those whole three hours feeling sorry for myself. I really leaned in. 

Robyn: Which is the normal part of you, right? Like the normal, when I say normal, it's that human element to all of us. That we came here to experience it.

You can't just bypass that. And you did, right? You did. But that's a healthy way of doing it, right? Like here's my time. Sometimes 

Karen: you just have to indulge yourself. That's right. 

Saloumeh: It's fine. At least I limited it. It wasn't indefinite. Because we don't have time for this.

We have lives to lead. 

Robyn: So you were able to. Really learn these principles at a young age and integrate them into [00:28:00] your life in this meaningful way. 

Saloumeh: And continuing to right as life goes on and my experiences in life change, I find that The lessons are harder, obviously, and they keep changing.

 A lot of times I'll have clients who will say to me, for example I've never been this way, it's because of that I'm this way. Now that in my life, I'm angry. I've never been angry, so therefore it's his fault. For example, and in Sufi psychology, he would say, no.

It was always with you. The opportunity to emerge wasn't there. 

 So now it has. 

And so I think, that's constantly every shift in life. it feels like a struggle, but it's like I have to remind myself that it was always there. This is just another thing that you gotta work through, another layer of the onion.

That's right. 

Robyn: And we've talked about this oneness, which we very much believe in, and.

there's different ways of experiencing that. And one question I have is there is this powerful meditation tool. tamarkoz? And is that [00:29:00] one meditation tool that. Can bring you to that place. And how does that differ from other meditation or mindfulness practices?

. 

Saloumeh: . It's a Sufi meditation practice. tamarkoz means it's the art of self knowledge through concentration and meditation. A true tamarkoz close like session, Like the ultimate goal of tamarkoz closes is heart concentration we're talking about, We just talked about the heart being the gateway to the soul, right to this other dimension. Now heart concentration is something you have to work up to do. It's not something we can just sit there and I can concentrate on my heart. There's too many other things that are in the way. And so tamarkoz has five components and these different components target the different parts of you and the different aspects of yourself to bring them all in harmony so that you can ultimately do the heart concentration.

that's tamarkoz in its form, right? What somebody on this path would use it for is to connect within. [00:30:00] Now, tamarkoz is also used we're using it as, caring for our caregivers and we're using it in hospitals, we're using it at universities and all of that because without doing that whole part without the goal of the spiritual.

 Connection with the heart and self-knowledge and all of that. The different components of tamarkozis do a lot also. So the very first component of tamarkoz actually helps you. It's called mental relaxation, helps you quiet the mind, The more you do this practice, the more you learn to quiet all the chattering of the mind.

 The next one is called means to balance. This actually balances The energy fields within your body, the electromagnetic energy centers of your body, so that the energy is uniformed throughout you and it's not so condensed in one energy within the body in particular. We have a whole field in psychology right now in terms of trauma work and somatic work.

We're realizing more and more that there's something to that. And then there's breathing exercises which amplify the electromagnetic waves that you're connecting [00:31:00] to. So this, I can go into this for days. And then there's deep relaxation, which gets rid of tensions in the body and in the muscles.

So all of this, it's the quiet the mind, quiet the body harmonize your energy and using breathing practices to really get you focused on 1.1 goal. So the practice involves all of that. Now, these practices are used independently. And actually what we've found through research there was a research article that was published in Nature Magazine that showed that practices, 'cause they taught at uc, Berkeley for many years in uc, Davis.

 They found that the students taking that course of tamarkoz their perceived stress was decreasing. And their positive emotions was increasing even in times of high stress. So as the control group, which is just like the regular people at the university who aren't taking the class. They were going into finals, their stress levels were increasing.

 The group that was doing tamarkoz, their stress levels were decreasing and they were like feeling good, all positive. [00:32:00] So it was for this reason that we're looking at all of the studies done and we're like, okay, we can use these on that are more stressed and are more vulnerable. First responders, university students, healthcare workers and such.

Robyn: Is there a set time that you need to practice? is it something you can do in five minutes? Is it something you need 20 minutes for? 

Karen: And is it really hard to learn? 'cause it feels like a very multifaceted process. 

Saloumeh: So there's different components. So we have a tamarkoz app. Where we have classes that are like 15 minutes long, It's not full tamarkoz. It's not that full sit with your heart, they are these different techniques, practicing them and getting them done.

 What I have found personally, when I first, and I'll just use mental relaxation for example, The first time I was doing mental relaxation. I would do the guided. The guided is like eight minutes long or something. You just have someone and you're able to do it, which is great.

 And I would do that and then I would sit for myself and I would do the exercise And then what happened is, as I did it more and more, as [00:33:00] you guys know, it's like a muscle that you've worked, right? To the point where if I'm trying to sleep right now and my mind is racing, I literally, it takes three seconds.

I just. Move the thoughts quiet and I'm out. So you'd learn how to use these techniques so The more you do them, you can achieve them more and more. In terms of a time, honestly, it's whenever you can do it. So in best really. With all of these types of practices, it's really best to have a set space and preferably a set time, mostly because the physical dimension does really well with structure.

 So if I have a set place and a set time, my brain will be like, oh, okay. Let me get in that mode. This is the time, and it just adjusts Pavlov's dogs, This has been researched. So it helps with the interferences of your physical dimension as it pushes against these types of practices to have a set time and a set place for.

Karen: Is this a prescription I say in air quotes for your patients or people that you know that are experiencing [00:34:00] burnout? Is that, do you find that this is a way for them to release that and work through that? 

Saloumeh: It can be. Yeah. I typically don't prescribe it, offer it up, feel like everybody, or think everybody should it's different for different people and how they use it.

The thing with burnout, I will say, coming from a Sufi background I think my perception of burnout is slightly different, so than what we typically think of. Typically burnout is called, emotional and physical exhaustion and, people are. told to just do self-care to treat that which typically has been translated to whatever you like doing.

 Massages, this, that, the other thing coming from a Sufi perspective a self knowledge background. Typically, when I'm addressing burnout, we first take a baseline. We see where you are at in terms of balance through all the different aspects of your life. And then the ones that are the lowest, we begin to target those.

And that is what self-care is to bring the system to a balance. Because if I am, for example, stressed [00:35:00] financially and stressed with time, and I'm feeling like I don't spend enough time with my kids and I have all these work responsibilities and all of that, and then I'm like, oh I'm burnt out. I have to get a massage.

 That hour, I might be able to zone out for a bit and have peace maybe for 60 minutes during the massage, but now I'm financially further deeper in the hole. More stress I missed out on more time with my kids, feeling worse. So not really helping you. But I think these are concepts that typically aren't discussed.

Again, these are terms we throw and we use without really thinking about what they mean. 

Robyn: It's such a good example. It's true. And speaking of people that we know you've worked with are caregivers and so how have you integrated and worked with caregivers using sufi Psychology or tamarkoz to support them, during burnout because we know so many caregivers right now have been, especially over the last five years. 

Saloumeh: Yes. So during COVID we started the caring for our [00:36:00] caregivers initiative, which as I mentioned, the research on the tamarkoz method, right, high stress during times of high stress, it decreases perceived stress and stuff.

 So we started donating electronic tablets with videos from the tamarkoz app on them to healthcare workers and hospitals. So they had these in their break rooms. Because what was happening during COVID, since a lot of my patients are healthcare workers, I was hearing back that basically they're exhausted.

They're sitting there just dazed on their breaks, right? There isn't anything they can use that kind of helps give them a little moment of relief. So really at that point the purpose was to give them moments of relief and I should mention Sufi psychology, it's not like a one size fits all.

Let me throw this exercise at you and it's gonna solve everything, right? psychologically people are so complex. You really have to work with where they're at. If somebody is in a heightened state like they were during the COVID pandemic where they're running around, no one has, 20 minutes even to sit there.

Focus inward. it's just not practical. So we need to give them little things that they [00:37:00] can use. So that was one of the things. The main thing in terms of how I work with caregivers now oftentimes at hospitals, I do workshops for them. in addition I do lectures for residents as well as we teach a course at Shenandoah University for medical students.

So we're trying to get them ahead of time for them to learn these things. But one of the things I have found personally in working with this population is. They have been trained for so long to help others to focus on others, decades that they're trained to just look at others, help others, they work hard, they put their needs last and go.

That as a result, they have lost kind of the ability to even understand what's happening with themselves. So they don't notice the subtleties. They don't notice when they're burning out until they're completely. Burnt. So part of this practice and part of what I would do is I'm teaching them to turn inward and check in so they can begin to understand what's going on with them.

So the crux of the burnout issue, I believe in, at least [00:38:00] part of it with healthcare workers, is their lack of knowledge of what is happening within them, because they have had to train and you've got people with high acuity around you, right? It's life or death. What am I gonna think about myself?

I should be helping you. So for this reason Sufi, psychology and Sufism really just plays in beautifully with this population. 

Karen: Wow. That's an important gift you're giving 'em, And I hear what you're saying. I'm sure so many of them are just waking up to the fact that they're burnt out because, like you said, they're just going so fast.

 How about for you, Saloumeh, how has Sufis psychology impacted you and your own life? Oh my gosh, so many ways. 

Saloumeh: It's a great question. I think if we're talking about just me in the physical world, I think it's made me more confident. It's made me less likely to feel that I have to go with the flow or what people think, I feel less influenced by people typically.

Not always, typically I think it gave me a sense of confidence in [00:39:00] kind of, , marching to the beat of my own drum. Because it is so internally processed, and it has given me a point of focus that's deeper than the everyday life.

So the things in everyday life, it really takes a lot for me to get stressed out. I don't typically get super stressed with things. I think it has connected me with a part of myself in a way that I recognize that there's so much more than this existence that I'm living. And. That gives me something solid to hold onto as I go through life and all of that.

And I think it's incredibly humbling. it shows you really all the flaws of how you are and your being, which is very human. I did an interview once, this was during. COVID and they asked me what is the thing I learned the most? During caring for our caregivers, our initiative, and hands down, the thing I could say is I learned how selfish I am.

 how much, I do think 'cause you're asking yourself why you're doing things. With Sufism, it's all about you. The [00:40:00] questioning is within. And you learn so much about yourself in so many different ways that, these are the things I've learned along the way and I'm still constantly learning.

Robyn: We have just learned so much from you today. I just wanna end on, is there one thing that is a non-negotiable for you in your everyday that you think might be helpful for somebody listening right now? 

Saloumeh: I think daily. Just spending time blocked out time that is for you. It doesn't have to be long, whatever it is.

And I think in those moments, I might not do all the same things. Sometimes I might meditate, sometimes I might pray, sometimes I might sing. I might read a book that's inspiring, I might journal. it's making sure that there is. Time that you're spending focused on yourself, like just dedicated to yourself.

Because it's so easy to get caught up in the day-to-day, and as we do, we become more reactive to the day-to-day that determines my mood, that [00:41:00] determines how I'm feeling, versus there's something inside that is stable that I can hold onto. 

Robyn: I love that. And it connects to what we were talking about earlier in our conversation about how we do get.

Disconnected from ourselves because there is so much going on in our world every single day. So that consistency to connect in with you. 

Saloumeh: I wanna say, especially now, right? As technology has advanced, right? In the old days, our world, our community was like our neighborhood.

 That's all we saw, right? So it was the stressors of our neighborhood that would stress us out. Right now it's our exposure is so much more that, or my neighbors aren't just the people who live next to me, right? They're people across the world. There's people I see everywhere, Being affected by other things, it's, there's a higher chance of me being affected by other things.

There is more anxiety nowadays with people. There is more fear [00:42:00] and I think we really need to make sure we are stepping back and inward quite a 

bit. 

Robyn: Completely agree and so grateful for all that you've shared. I have a feeling we're gonna be talking to you more. There's a lot more to seek and learn together.

For those that are curious to explore more about Sufism or Sufi psychology or Where should they start? 

Saloumeh: you could just go to the Sufi psychology website. we're starting some online workshops. We have a thing on our Instagram called Wellness Live once a month where we do like an interview with related to wellness with somebody.

Perfect. Also, There's a Tam Marcos app that you can download and try. It's free for 30 days and you can try that. I have classes on Wednesdays at 10:00 AM Eastern, you can watch, our classes are in a multitude of different languages.

We have Hebrew, German, Farsi French, English Italian. Wonderful. Spanish. So yeah try it out and see how you feel [00:43:00] about it. 

Karen: I feel like you've just opened the door on like this ancient world that's obviously always been there, but that many of us just never knew about.

So 

Robyn: agree. Yes, I'm excited to even explore more. And for everyone listening, you can go to sufi psychology.org to check out everything that saloumeh was just talking about. Learn more about her work too. And thank you so much. 

Saloumeh: Thank you for having me, you guys. This is so great. I think it's really important that there is a platform where people can talk about these things openly, especially now that it's so necessary.

So thank you guys for putting that together and for having me. This was a great conversation. 

Robyn: Here's to more conversations. Yeah, absolutely. 

Saloumeh: Thank you.