Seeking Center: The Podcast

Psychedelics: What You NEED to Know Before You Try (Lisa Solomon) - Episode 185

• Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Lisa Solomon • Season 2 • Episode 185

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Psychedelics are everywhere in the conversation right now. Maybe you’ve heard about a friend’s ayahuasca retreat or someone’s transformational psilocybin journey. For some, these experiences are truly transformational—like a soul reset. But for others? Not so much. We've heard words like “wrecked” or “depressed” come up, too.

So what’s the truth? What do you really need to know before you consider trying psychedelics?

We’re kicking off a powerful, eye-opening series on psychedelics with Lisa Solomon, a cannabis and psychedelic industry expert trained by some of the world’s leading scientists and deeply rooted in the sacred traditions of plant medicine.

Lisa brings wisdom, compassion, and practical guidance to help you navigate these powerful tools.

In this episode, we explore:

  • The indigenous roots of psychedelics — and why honoring them matters
  • The difference between recreational use and intentional, ceremonial use
  • Ayahuasca vs. Psilocybin vs. Ketamine
  • How to prepare your body, mind, and spirit before a journey
  • Potential benefits and risks you might not have heard about
  • How to know if psychedelics are right for you — and why timing matters
  • The critical role of integration after your experience


Think of this as your “know before you go” guide — grounded in safety, reverence, and real talk. There’s so much to learn, and this is just the beginning.

DISCLAIMER
The content of this podcast is for informational and introductory educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice, diagnose or treat any condition, or encourage illegal activity. Psychedelic substances remain controlled in many jurisdictions. Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider and check local laws before making decisions related to your health or the use of any psychoactive substance

RESOURCES

Visit theseekingcenter.com for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. Okay, we're talking psychedelics because they seem to be everywhere right now. Maybe you've caught wind of a friend's ayahuasca retreat or someone you know has shared a life altering journey with psilocybin or ketamine. For some, these experiences are [00:01:00] truly transformational. Like a soul reset, but for others, not so much.

We've heard words like wrecked or depressed come up too. So what's the truth? What do you really need to know Before you consider trying psychedelics? We're kicking off the first of several eye-opening conversations on the topic of psychedelics, and we're honored to have Lisa Solomon here to guide us.

 Lisa is a cannabis and psychedelic industry expert with a deep understanding of plant medicine policy and the importance of safety, intention and integration. She's trained with some of the world's leading scientists, and she's the real deal when it comes to helping people navigate these powerful tools.

With wisdom and care together, we're unpacking the most common psychedelics like ayahuasca and psilocybin, and diving into the essentials of what we're calling know before you go. Think of it like choosing a trusted tarot reader or a medium. You wouldn't just trust your energy with anyone, right?

The same caution and reverence should apply when it comes to psychedelics. [00:02:00] we'll talk about preparation potential Risks, the role of your physical and mental health and how to know if a psychedelic journey is right for you right now.

There's so much to learn and this is just the beginning. Let's seek the truth together. And I'm gonna read a disclaimer before we get going. The content of this podcast is for informational and introductory educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice, diagnose or treat any condition, or encourage illegal activity.

Psychedelic substances remain controlled in many jurisdictions. Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider and check local laws before making decisions related to your health. Or the use of any psychoactive substances. Okay, now it's time to get going. Hi Lisa. Hi Karen. Hi Robin. Hi Karen. 

Karen: Lisa, we're so glad you're here because this is a topic that we touch upon and a lot of our conversations lately, and it seems every time you read something, everybody's got that interest in psychedelics and yet so many of us really don't [00:03:00] understand a lot about them and might be even.

Afraid of them in some way. you're here to shed a light on this whole subject with us. So can we start at the beginning, which is really around the roots of psychedelics, which really can be traced back to the indigenous times and maybe even before that. 

Lisa: Yeah, and thanks so much for asking about that and thank you for having me for this conversation here. I agree. So many people wanna know and don't know where to go for information, so I love that you are providing this. You've touched on some of your podcasts and I love that you're continuing to offer more.

So psychedelics do have indigenous roots and it's very important to honor and acknowledge the indigenous cultures who really stewarded this sacred plant medicine. For generations. Traditions involving ayahuasca and psilocybin, which we'll focus on today, as well as others such as Peyote and San Pedro, have very long histories rooted in healing community and spiritual wisdom.

And much of what is now being discovered in the [00:04:00] modern world comes from the knowledge that was held in these communities and passed down generation after generation for thousands of years with great respect and care. 

Karen: that's a beautiful way to set that up. So there is so much history in this ancient medicine, really.

How do you define psychedelic medicines? 

Lisa: That's a good question. There's substances that can alter perception, mood, and understanding in ways that can lead to profound psychological insights, emotional healing, and spiritual experiences, especially when used intentionally and in ceremonial or therapeutic settings.

a lot of people will confuse the recreational 

Versus the medicines. 

Robyn: Let's talk about that for a second. What does that mean when we think about medicine and how these can be used? you were just touching on it, but really how can somebody think about psychedelics as medicine versus the recreational?

Lisa: Part of it is related [00:05:00] to dose, and a big part of it is related to intention. Are you using it for a short escape from reality or a way that you think you're gonna have more fun at a concert or, do you really want to feel. These like spiritual connections that you have felt, but would like to see if you can feel them deeper or reach levels of connectivity you haven't had, or you are aware of All the research that shows that there are a lot of healing properties within these medicines.

So it's intention set, setting dose, a lot of different things that come together. 

Robyn: Yeah, I think that is really important, especially I would say, I think about so many of my friends who experimented in college with psychedelics, and most of them did not have that intention. And at the time we didn't really have all of this research at our fingertips, which we do now, and we [00:06:00] can be using this in this way of really.

Transforming your life in a completely different way. So it's important for people to understand that there is a difference. 

Lisa: Yes. And it's interesting when you talk about when you were in college, people experimenting because there was already science there, but it was buried and it's just now coming out again.

So it would be fascinating to do a whole episode just touching on the highlights of the history. 

Robyn: I so agree. And I also think I know for when I was in college, the internet. Wasn't a thing yet, it was just starting to become a thing. But certainly, now, if you wanna experiment, you can find all of this information that wasn't at our fingertips back, 30 years ago.

Lisa: And you can find some of the things we'll talk about later on, like the potential drug interactions if you're on prescription meds. We'll get to that later. There are a lot of important things to know. 

Karen: I love how you put it, [00:07:00] because some people do look at these medicines as escape tools versus

getting that spiritual connection, which was really the intention them to begin with.

Lisa: And when we talk about people using them as an escape, they actually can help break up rigid thought patterns. So for someone who does have ruminating thoughts, or they might be getting some therapeutic benefits when they're using them recreationally.

They're just not getting as much out of them as they can. 

Robyn: and I don't know if we wanna touch on this now, but I'm gonna just ask it, which is, how do these drugs, and we're gonna go into each of these more specifically, but how can these help somebody see things in their life and just see things differently?

Lisa: So one of the big things is there's something called the default mode network, and this is a neuroscience term. It's used in psychology and in psychedelic medicines. When you interrupt or temporarily stop, [00:08:00] like the default mode network, it's allowing you to see things differently. They talk about ego dissolution happening, so you can have connections and insights and things that your mind wouldn't normally allow you to see.

And a common. Term that people talk about is like monkey mind. You have monkey mind, like those ruminating thoughts. You're stressed, do I have to pick up the kids dinner, get ready? Do I have that project finished? And this just gives you a break from that. And if you think about what it's like when all those thoughts just go away and what can come in, that's one of the beauties of psychedelic medicines.

Robyn: That's a cool way of thinking about it. I never thought about it that way. So what are the classic psychedelics? 

Lisa: so classic psychedelics have been used In ceremonial indigenous settings and modern clinical settings. So they include psilocybin, which a lot of people think of as magic [00:09:00] mushrooms or shrooms, LSD, which is a synthetic compound that was initially derived off of a fungus.

DMT. Some people have heard of DMT and others that have not, I don't think, realize that is the act of psychoactive component in an ayahuasca brew. It's not actually in the ayahuasca plant. It's in the crole, which is brewed with the ayahuasca vine and the reason they're done together. Because there's something in the Ayahuasca that prevents the stomach, like from breaking down the dmt so you can have this beautiful psychoactive experience.

And the human body actually produces a small amount of DMT. Now they're still wanting to do more research on it. They think it's possibly in the pineal gland, but they don't really understand the function and what it's doing. And then another one is mescaline, which is found in peyote and San Pedro cacti.

 And then what about ketamine? So ketamine is [00:10:00] something that a lot of people refer to as a psychedelic because you can have these beautiful experiences on it, but it is actually a disassociative anesthetic. So it's working on different mechanisms. But ketamine is something that is legal in the us. It was first used as an anesthetic and it's being used off-label for a lot of different mental health conditions.

Robyn: and I know we're gonna focus mostly on ayahuasca and psilocybin in this conversation

Karen: If you were trying to tell someone like me who has absolutely no idea how they actually work, can you give us just a super high level just so that we can understand I know they don't all work the same for every person, but just generally what's the impact and how do they work?

Lisa: So I'll give you like a high level overview 'cause we're gonna keep it simple. There's a lot about receptor sites in the human body and I don't wanna get into the specifics 'cause we'll just drown people with the [00:11:00] science talk. But anyone who wants to really see that there are so many articles on PubMed.

First of all, I wanna say there is so much science behind it. research is going on at major universities in the US and around the world. You've got Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, a bunch of the uc schools even University of Madison Wisconsin, and University of Alabama. The list just goes.

On and on. So I mentioned earlier the default mode network that it breaks up. So that is a really big thing that psychedelics do. So because that default mode network is running in the background and is very active when your brain is at rest. Psychedelics allow you to break free from that. Imagine anyone who's old enough to or who likes music enough to have a turntable, when the needle get stuck and you'd hear the same thing over and over again.

Psychedelics can help you stop hearing that same thing over and over. And when that is not running, it gives you space for new [00:12:00] insights, spontaneous thoughts and feelings. And sometimes they're very difficult to describe. People will wanna talk about their experience they can't even find the words to put to what they saw or what they felt because they're going places that they haven't been before.

So they don't have the language that, another big thing with psychedelic medicines that is so fabulous and that there's a lot of continuing research on is neuroplasticity. So psychedelic medicines can actually help form new and repair damaged, neurological connections. So it's really opening people up and it is believed that window of neuroplasticity and neurogeneration continues after the experience.

So that's one of the things we'll talk about, like with the integration and giving yourself time after a medicine ceremony. But that can just provide you with amazing windows for emotional breakthroughs, healing, lasting behavioral [00:13:00] changes. 

Karen: in general though, do each one of these medicines have a set purpose.

 there 

Lisa: are different things that different medicines are believed to really support more than some of the others. And there's still a lot of research and we can spend a whole session talking about all different medicines. But for example, I'll give you one we didn't discuss today because it's somewhat unique, and that is Ibogaine.

It's from the Iboga plant, which is mainly found in Gabon and some other surrounding. Countries, and that is something which everyone agrees probably has the lowest abuse potential of any of the psychedelic medicines because you are purging from just about every orifice. It could go 24, 36 hours. It is a brutal experience, I've been told by people who have done it or oversee these ceremonies, but it is showing incredible potential for.

Not just helping people that have addictions a bit, but actually curing the addictions. And [00:14:00] it's in the early stages of the research. So they're looking to see these people who've been great for two years and were a hardcore alcoholic for decades, and now can have an occasional drink and never have a compulsion for a second.

Is that going to continue for the rest of their life? If they've been going great for two years, might they need another ceremony or experience to maintain that? While it's incredibly promising, we don't have all the parameters set. So yes, they are different. And MDMA is fabulous for people dealing with post-traumatic stress and also it's fabulous for people for couples that want to get closer.

But again, these medicines have things they're great at and also have cautions. MDMA when it's done as part of a couple, can increase the emotional bonds. So if this is a relationship where there is any type of abuse. The therapist really shouldn't be using that. They should know enough not to because it can tighten that emotional connection, [00:15:00] making it harder for the person who is abused to actually leave if they need to leave that situation.

Robyn: This is all part of that. know before you go. And I'm sure you're working with somebody who is versed deeply in Yes. All that can do and understanding who you are. 

Karen: Exactly. Exactly. Because there could be a tendency, 'cause my best friend did LSD and it was a wonderful experience for her.

It may not necessarily be the right choice for me, but I know we're gonna get into that. 

Robyn: and probably the dose of things like, I think that's a big part of it too. 

Lisa: It is. Dose is huge and on another episode we can talk about microdosing, but with psilocybin and LSD people use micro doses or take full doses depending on want their experience to be.

 Yeah. 

Robyn: So let's focus on Ayahuasca first. Let's talk about that is and you mentioned a little bit, but how that works and why someone would. [00:16:00] Want to experience ayahuasca? 

Lisa: Yes. A lot of people want to experience ayahuasca because they feel like they have the potential to have a profound life changing experience.

 A lot of people do, not everyone, but a lot of people do. in terms of actual safety, I just wanna say that Ayahuasca, there is archeological evidence to show that it's been used at least a thousand years, likely much longer. So in terms of toxicity, both ayahuasca and psilocybin are plants that are believed to be very safe when prepared and dosed properly.

Robyn: So then what is the know before you go with ayahuasca? 

Lisa: Wow. There is a lot with that. because there is something, there's a term that it gets thrown around, like in psychedelic circles called AYA tourism. 

Robyn: when you say that, I know exactly what you're saying. Exactly. 

Lisa: Yes, retreats have popped up all over the place and, they vary greatly.

You have some [00:17:00] that have medical teams on staff. They do a full medical evaluation with you before you go find out what medicine, what medications you're on, if there any potential interactions, if you have issues. With like blood pressure or heart rate or seizure disorder, they'll ask a lot of questions to see if you're a good candidate physically for the medicine, because Ayahuasca is a very powerful sacred plant medicine.

 It's from the Amazon Rainforest, traditionally used by indigenous cultures for healing and spiritual insight. All these indigenous tribes have medicine people there, so they were doing it not in terms of the same type of, intake that we go through in the Western world, but they were doing that.

And so when someone says they're going on an Ayahuasca retreat and they'll be served ayahuasca or drink ayahuasca. It's actually, it's a brewed tea that's made from the ayahuasca vine and the chacruna leaf. And as I mentioned earlier, it's the chacruna leaf that actually has the DMT, the [00:18:00] psychedelic compound.

 And DMT is sometimes referred to as the spirit molecule because in talking about what different medicines can do, it can allow you to have vivid, very spiritual experiences with it. And the Ayahuasca vine, as I mentioned, is what allows the DMT to be active. So vivid visions, deep emotional releases, a sense of connection to nature, to ancestors, or a greater spiritual presence.

So that's why people get so excited and come back saying they have these amazing experiences with Ayahuasca. So you have people in your community who can connect with spirit. On their own and can get to beautiful places. So for someone who is able to do that, they might go to places that they never even imagined.

Or just feel a more intense connection to those that they connect with regularly. 

Robyn: So it can enhance that. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Robyn: And for people who don't feel they're able [00:19:00] to connect or see visions on their own, this could be a catalyst for that 

Lisa: definitely. But what is important to note here is that while a lot of people have these beautiful experiences, other people.

Have like memories surface that are a very traumatic events. And there is a little bit of people aren't sure if some of these could potentially be false memories or if they're all repressed memories coming up because you can have someone who's healthy, who thinks they had a really good healthy childhood going to ayahuasca ceremony, and all of a sudden, and that this has happened, have very vivid visions of being abused when they were young.

And sometimes people come out and they're thinking. Did that really happen to me? I have no memories of this. They may realize there's a time period of their childhood where they really don't have many memories, so maybe [00:20:00] they are repressed memories or maybe they think they remember everything and can't understand why they are seeing that.

They can be very intense in a positive or a very unsettling way, and this is why it's so important to do the appropriate preparation with someone. Doesn't have to be a therapist, but someone who is trained or very knowledgeable about the conversations that need to be had prior to a ceremony.

And that anyone doing this has an integration therapist to talk to afterwards and someone who really understands what can come up during psychedelic me medicine ceremonies that understands what they're seeing. Maybe it didn't actually happen, but maybe it's a representation of another type of trauma that happened.

So they understand the types of questions to ask to help guide someone through figuring out to the best that they can. What these visions actually were. 

Karen: Was Ayahuasca always used this [00:21:00] way? was always the intention for it to help a person enhance that more spiritual connection?

Or was there some. Larger purpose. Was it part of a ritual for the tribe? Was it for physical reasons or, it seems very specifically that this is used to have that spiritual connection, but I just wonder if there was something more 

Lisa: my studies are not deep enough to give very specific answers that, but in general, yes, in indigenous use, this was part of their culture and.

Supported their spiritual connection to their people. So that's why it's hard. I think, they see people using these as recreational drugs or people going out to ceremonies that are not being led by shamans or are people that understand and know and respect the medicine and.

 It creates a bit of an issue for people. Anyone, whatever religion you are, whatever your beliefs are, if there's something that is sacred to you and all of a sudden you see people using it, tossing it around like someone would toss you on a [00:22:00] wall, you feel like they're not respecting your culture.

So that's why it's good to understand they didn't use them as recreational drugs. Yeah. They were part of the ceremony. another thing I wanna make sure to throw out that people don't realize, someone comes back and says, no, it was wonderful, it was great. They might not have mentioned that they were vomiting.

Having done, I was just gonna say that. We haven't discussed that part of it. 

Karen: I can't even say the word ayahuasca without thinking about the word vomit. Like to me. They're connected. 

Lisa: Not everyone does, but a lot of people do. And it is believed that the purging it could be what we just talked about.

It could be sweating, it could be crying, shaking, like burping, coughing. People get like different signals sometimes like a burp or a cough when they are, psychic and they're getting a signal. All these things are different ways of purging, so you don't know what your experience is going to be going in.

Makes sense. 

Karen: You have to be prepared, 

Lisa: right? 

Karen: The purging. I know 

Robyn: , when you are [00:23:00] considering this, you have to think about all of that. And in most of these cases, you're in ceremony with a number of other people, typically, you're not by yourself, so you have to make sure you can feel vulnerable enough.

And trust. 

Lisa: Yes, definitely that trust is important and it's generally recommended that you go with whatever the purges that's coming out, because that might be part of the release of buried emotions, things that no longer serve you, anger, resentment, so you can have a better outcome if you go with it.

Karen: That makes so much sense. 

Robyn: Yeah. It's interesting too when I think about, the experience and what may come up for people and some things where they just didn't even realize, or remember, let's say you said those I also wonder too, there's probably elements, whether it's that or just some of the visions that you do see, or the connections you do make [00:24:00] that you're tapping into other, almost parallel timelines or past lives of yourself.

Like to me, it opens it up for that. So it's hard to say, Oh 

Karen: wow, 

Robyn: I never thought that. I don't, that's just what comes to mind when we talk about this. 

Lisa: And in addition to that, which I believe to be true, and there's just so much that's not clearly known and why there's so much more studying, but there are some experts that say it can also be your fears or your dreams being manifested.

Robyn: I can see that too. There's just a lot of unknown and you have to be open for whatever may come. we talk about that all the time with a lot of the different experiences that we have without psychedelics, because I think there are some similarities to some of the modalities that we talk about or experience on Seeking Center.

Within Seeking Center. And you have to just be open to what's shown to you. And then unpack it, like where did it come from? 

Karen: Just why the [00:25:00] integration is so important afterwards. 

Robyn: Yes. that's so important. Yeah. So before we move on to psilocybin with ayahuasca, who should avoid, really considering 

Lisa: it, It's advised you either avoid it or consult with an expert and by an expert it means someone who is well versed in psychedelic medicines and drug interactions. If anyone has a psychotic or severe mood disorder, if they're on psychiatric medicines including SSRIs like Prozac, Zoloft, or SNRIs Cymbalta. You really need to check with a knowledgeable medical professional, and there are psychiatrists that work in the psychedelic space and they might recommend an appropriate taper off of the medication you're on, and if they feel it's not safe for you to be off of that medication for the taper and period and the medicine ceremony, they might put you on something else short term that is safe to have.

With the medicine, [00:26:00] and it's not just prescriptions. There are supplements like St. John's Waort and ginseng. It's unclear as to whether or not those can be an issue. So it's something someone needs to really check on and be aware of if you have a heart issue, seizure disorder, liver or kidney issues, of course, pregnant or breastfeeding.

And then the big one we just mentioned before is if you do not have the proper psychological support or. Integration resources. 

Robyn: It's really important to think about. And I feel like a lot of people who may be on some of these medications are the ones who most be seeking some answers, so it's really important to point that out.

Lisa: Yes. And I've had people reach out to me that say, oh, you know what I found, a retreat, I wanna go on it. I think this is gonna be it for me. I'm so excited and I start asking 'em the questions about medications they're on, about the support system. If they're suffering abuse is the abuser currently in their [00:27:00] household, and they hadn't thought about any of these things.

Robyn: And so there's ways to still experience it, but you just have to take the precautions and have the conversations and do what's necessary physically too. So let's move on to psilocybin and talk about, what's the difference, number one, I know, we know that there are actually different substances.

 But really why would someone choose psilocybin over, let's say, ayahuasca? 

Lisa: Okay, first of all, psilocybin is generally a much gentler ride, a much gentler medication. People can have some really powerful experiences on it, but in terms of, the really rough things that will come up, there's generally a difference in that.

So psilocybin, actually converts in the body to psilocin. That is the active ingredient, the psychotropic part of it, and that binds to serotonin receptors. So if someone like is on SSRIs, [00:28:00] it's important for the provider to know that and for the person to talk to their psychiatrist because there's all this talk about serotonin syndrome can make you feel awful, potentially deadly.

Honestly, the research is very mixed. They don't know enough about it. What they do know is that serotonin will really deaden the effects of psilocybin. So there are people on SSRIs that will take massive doses of psilocybin three, four times what a regular person might need to get where they want to go.

Wow. And still feel next to nothing. I am not recommending that. And I am saying if you're on SSRIs, talk to a doctor. I had 

Robyn: no idea about that.

I think that's really interesting. 

.

Robyn: What can someone potentially expect during that kind of dose, like a full dose of psilocybin and that kind of experience. 

Lisa: So [00:29:00] sensory perceptions can be different. So colors can seem brighter, sounds just more vivid. And some people see visual patterns, like geometric type of grids, different colors, and they might have some mild like hallucination type of visions.

 Emotions can be really amplified, whether it's joy or fear. It can help bring unconscious material to the surface time. Is often distorted for people, like they may feel like like minutes can feel like hours. So the sense of time are completely dissolved. So you may not know. And again, you get ego dissolution with this like you do with ayahuasca.

So that's what can help lead to profound insights. And again, psilocybin There has been research to show that you get a neuroplasticity boost. So it can not only help your brain in general, but that is one of the things they believe that can allow for like new perspectives and [00:30:00] breakthroughs. 

All: Because 

Lisa: your brain can just work a little bit differently.

It's less rigid. 

Robyn: Yeah. I can't remember if you explained what neuroplasticity is, just to make sure people understand it. 

 

Lisa: Okay. So in simple terms, it's a period where the brain can just be like more elastic. And do more things. It really, it's just less rigid. 

Karen: It allows 

Robyn: for flexibility in the brain. 

Karen: Just like someone mentioned, it's like skiing like having going down.

Yes. Just like other skiers have gone before. Other thoughts have gone before Yes. To go down the same one over and over. So it's hard to diverge from that one path. Whereas this almost puts layer of fluffy snow on top of it that you can carve a different path. I love that. New 

Lisa: perspectives and have emotional breakthroughs. Yes. 

Karen: Yeah. I love that. wanna 

Lisa: touch base on something about, these being everywhere, you can buy them everywhere. another caution here is that a lot of the magic mushroom [00:31:00] products people are seeing all over Instagram and and in gas stations and head shops and everything else, they're not actually the psilocybin mushrooms.

They're a type of mushroom called Amanita muscaria. And it's actually like the one in a lot of the shroom pictures. The red ones with the white dots. if it is dried and prepared properly, it can be safe and give you a psychedelic like experience. However, they can be toxic if not prepared properly.

So when you're buying something that has no testing requirements, that could potentially be toxic, be careful. 

Robyn: That's a huge thing for people to think about because that's scary. 

Karen: And the way they're labeling them and marketing them now, it's like just this, like this fun candy that you eat and you could just pick your poison.

You can, feel happier, you can feel more relaxed.

Lisa: There's a loophole in the law that allows those to be sold because they weren't [00:32:00] specifically named as something as that substance not being legal.

But a lot of the mushroom products that are sold in all these same places do have psilocybin in them. But again. There's no testing required. Do you really know what kind of dose you're getting? So if someone is gonna buy things like that, be careful. I would never recommend taking something in public till you've tried it at home and know how that specific batch of that product affects you and don't have a trusted person, nearby.

There are a lot of things to consider. 

Robyn: From 

Lisa: a psilocybin 

Robyn: perspective. Is it legal in states? how does that work? 

Lisa: so psilocybin is not legal for personal or recreational or, self-medicating use. In the us, however, in Oregon and Colorado's program is coming online, it is legal for therapeutic use, but they have very strict guidelines surrounding [00:33:00] those, and it's only at licensed treatment centers.

And it's very expensive. So it's great that these have been rolled out, but a lot of changes need to be made because if it's gonna cost you $15,000 to do a psilocybin experience, that makes it cost prohibitive. For the average person, 

Robyn: and with psilocybin, let's say, and ketamine, if someone were trying to.

 Help let's say they've been constantly depressed. is one better than another I know you can't make that blanket statement, but who would consider psilocybin versus something like ketamine?

Lisa: Okay, so first of all, ketamine is legal if you're gonna a licensed provider. The other thing is ketamine is believed to be one of the best things to just like break up suicidal ideations. And it can last for a little bit. There are protocols though, where if someone [00:34:00] is really battling severe depression.

They might be going two or three times a week. There are different protocols for ketamine, for a couple of weeks. A certain number of sessions, therapy in between. So that can be done in practically any state in the US The issue is because it's off-label use for the ketamine, it's not being used in an an anesthetic.

The Ketamine administration itself is not covered by insurance. If your insurance covers therapy, those sessions, that part of the experience can be, but a ketamine session can easily be a few hundred dollars. And if the protocol calls for six or eight sessions and you're talking a couple thousand dollars, in that range.

This is part of why we need more people to understand these medicines so people can advocate, we can get laws changed, get insurance reimbursement. 

Robyn: I also wanna go back to psilocybin for a second. [00:35:00] I have this really quick, interesting story about a friend that was growing mushrooms and going to use them.

In having more of an awakening experience and mushrooms are living, breathing organisms and what's interesting is the mushrooms were absorbing a lot of negative energy. mushrooms can also obviously absorb a lot of. Positive energy like We have another person that we knew that was growing them and using reiki on them every day.

And so when people ended up using those mushrooms, they had a very healing experience. But this person, I wish they could remember the why of why these mushrooms happened to be in a place where they were receiving a lot of like negative. Talk when someone was upset, they were near the mushrooms and they were talking about not liking themself or [00:36:00] issues that were going on within the family.

And when the person took those mushrooms, they had a terrible experience. , and this is someone who Has utilized different psychedelics before so I just wanna point that out. Even those kinds of things, because we're not talking about regulated medicines, you don't know where it's being grown. You need to check those things. And so I just bring that up as another know before you go. Wow. 

Lisa: And that's something that's really hard to know.

If you're going on an ayahuasca ceremony that you know has the shamans that they've been doing this. For many years it's been passed down to 'em. And they understand because there are prayers or blessings being said as they're making the brew. It's very different than if you're going to maybe an underground ceremony in your town where someone thinks it's really cool and they manage to get ahold of things and they're blasting, music or whatever it might be.

And like you were saying, having these [00:37:00] negative conversations around the medicine, what is that going to do? Exactly. 

Karen: Lisa What I love about your interest and experience in this area is that you love to follow the science as well as just the application of the medicine itself.

in terms of how the world is evolving, at this space in time. Do you feel like the science is catching up to. Help people and even the medical field understand the impact that these medicines can actually have on people. Do you you feel the shift actually coming to them being more acceptable forms of treatment?

Lisa: Yes. I feel the shift coming, but it's a bit slow when you think about the average medical professional who has so much to keep up with in their specific field. They don't have the time to necessarily do it, or they're concerned if they [00:38:00] have a conversation with a patient about it, that they could be opening themselves up to a lawsuit.

If someone chooses to go do something 

All: and 

Lisa: something doesn't happen. However, the science is definitely moving forward. We need a lot more funding for it to move. Forward at a pace that would be more helpful to society. There are incredible medicines in the pipeline.

There are things in phase two and phase three FDA trials. A lot of people have heard about the MDMA for PTSD with the veterans. What a lot of your listeners probably have not heard of yet is they're, I think, nearing the end of phase two trials with a synthesized version of Psilocin. Psilocybin in a lab.

So the effects will only last three to four hours instead of possibly six, seven, or eight. And this is for women with postpartum depression and. It has been incredible. The results are absolutely amazing. And because there are some [00:39:00] women leading some of this research in the field, we are seeing things that are actually being made to treat issues that specifically affect women.

All: And 

Lisa: it's just we need to get this out there more in the public. So more clinicians understand that they have a lot of patients that are actually, experiencing these medicines. And a psychiatrist should not be writing. Any prescription without specifically asking, do you ever, use any psychedelic medicine.

Same thing with any other type of physician that's prescribing medicine this should be asked. And that one line on there do you use drugs or take any drugs? That is so outdated. 

Robyn: So true. I know you're also. Very versed in cannabis, and that's a whole other discussion.

But again, all of these questions it should be more of an open dialogue. Definitely. And so many people don't like to. Divulge what they're [00:40:00] really doing, which is an issue. 

Lisa: And part of it is it's not just for fear of being shamed. They could get reported possibly if they're a parent, they taken away from them.

States are harsher than others.

Robyn: So you're forced to not be honest in those cases. 

Lisa: Yeah. It's a very dangerous thing. But when you were asking, are they legal? So while it's legal in limited states, there are so many clinical trials going on, and that website, clinical trials.gov, you can type in psilocybin, ayahuasca, MDMA, whatever it is you want, and your state, and see if there is something going on.

There are at least 50 currently recruiting for new trials for psilocybin. 

Robyn: Wow. 

Lisa: And that's not including any other medicine. Try that if you're interested. 

Robyn: Yeah. 'cause we're really specifically talking about in this episode how psychedelics are used as medicine. And I think the other thing, just to point out with ayahuasca, a lot of times as you were talking about the [00:41:00] AYA tourism.

 Many people are traveling outside of the US to experience these. And you do also have to consider again, a lot of your other physical ailments because if something should happen and you're not in the US yes, there are you. What is the closest, as you were talking about like a medical team, you might need a hospital and what does that look like?

You really have to do your due diligence before you just jump in. 

Lisa: Or if you have a challenging experience, can you get on an airplane and fly home? 

Robyn: Yeah. And again, we know that so many people have positive experiences, but we've also heard of people who don't necessarily have the most positive of experiences which is why we feel it's really important to just talk about all of it.

Lisa: So another thing I wanna point out that I. Sort of referenced earlier I mentioned like the underground ceremonies that happen. In addition to that, there are psychedelic churches that exist [00:42:00] in a legal gray area in the US because they can get a religious exemption if this is part of their religion in their ceremony.

Now, I call it a gray area because a lot of these. people created them to be able to serve ayahuasca and psilocybin or other medicines to people. But there are a couple of churches out of Brazil that are legitimate, that do have the religious exemptions that would hold up in court here. So just, do your due diligence.

Even if you find a psychedelic church and they say they are legal, understand they are not. like fully legal, unless they're one of the two Brazilian ones. And there were some churches in Michigan raided within the past year and there were some arrests. I don't know if it was just the providers or if some of the participants were, you gotta be careful.

There are plenty of countries you can go to do it legally, if you have the proper support systems in place. I would only go if there's someone who could travel with you full medical clearance. [00:43:00] Just a lot of things to think about.

Robyn: And the other part is that post ceremony and that integration aspect of the medicine 

Lisa: and the really good legitimate retreat sites will require that you have that integration set up, whether they do it with you virtually or make sure you have a provider at home, but them making sure you have that does not mean that it's a great retreat site.

So still look into it. 

Karen: Lisa. If someone is curious about any one of these medicines. aside from you, what's a good resource for them to go to? 

Lisa: There are some great resources online. So maps, multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Medicine. It's a nonprofit founded in 1986. That's a great place to start. They're the ones Rick Doblin. The founders testified before Congress. He is. Been really a key person in getting those MDMA trials for veterans going. They have a lot of resources listed on their site.

There's [00:44:00] a website, psychedelic Support, which is a directory of vetted therapists, and also as articles and webinars, double blind. It's one word together. Double Blind Magazine Online is great. Another site. The third wave.com has a retreat directory, and then there's one called ia advisors.org, A YA advisors.org.

They have a global directory, although most of the sites they list are in Peru, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Columbia. Another one that talks about the legal status in countries is I-C-E-E-R s.org. So those are places to look online and I cannot say that all the information on there is accurate and true, but they do a good job of sourcing the information they provide.

So they're pretty good sources. And then locally, if someone's looking to connect, see if there's a local psychedelic society. A lot of cities or states have them, you can look online SSDP students for a sensible drug policy. [00:45:00] They have chapters at universities, like throughout the country, and they do some educational events, so you could look for a local chapter.

There are meetups online. Be careful with those because you don't know who you're getting. You may have a skilled practitioner wanting to support people. Integrating, I've popped into some, and it's people that have a lot of emotional challenges looking for people who will come on board and help them and they may be dumping, so they just run the gamut.

And then there are a lot of webinars. Look at those sources above. You can learn a lot there. 

Robyn: And we'll have all of these in our show notes, so if you didn't catch that because there were so many good ones, we'll also have that listed. And we know that this is really just the first of several conversations about psychedelics as medicine and psychedelics in general.

And we also really welcome questions. [00:46:00] DM us, email us. You can reach Lisa at Luminous Synergies. That's L-U-M-I-N-O-U-S-S-Y-N-E-R-G-I-E s@gmail.com or through Seeking Center. And Lisa, you are just so versed you 

Lisa: are. I so appreciate you letting me come on and have this conversation with the two of you.

Robyn: Thank you so much, much. Karen and I , our whole goal is to learn and share, and I feel like even though I know some about psychedelics, especially as medicine, I learned so much today and I know we just touched on it, everybody. and so we're gonna come back and have more conversations about this in the coming months.

And again, reach out and ask us more questions. So thank you. Thank you.