Seeking Center: The Podcast

Chiron + Psychoastrology®: The Therapy You Didn’t Know Was Written in the Stars - Episode 174

• Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Lisa Tahir • Season 2 • Episode 174

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Ever heard of Chiron in astrology? Most people haven’t—and it might just be the missing piece in your healing journey. ✨

This week we are honored to welcome Lisa Tahir—Licensed Clinical Social Worker, author of "The Chiron Effect: Healing Our Core Wounds through Astrology, Empathy, and Self-Forgiveness," host of the "All Things Therapy" podcast, and all-around transformational guide. Lisa blends traditional therapy with spiritual wisdom, astrology, energy healing, and her own groundbreaking method called Psychoastrology® to help you understand and heal your core wounding—the hidden emotional themes you’ve carried your whole life.

Lisa reveals:
🌟 What Chiron is (aka the “wounded healer”)
🌟 How to find your Chiron sign + what it says about your emotional patterns
🌟 Practical rituals to start transforming pain into purpose
🌟 Why you must forgive yourself first if you truly want to heal

PLUS: Robyn + Karen get vulnerable as Lisa shares their personal Chiron placements—and the truths they’ve carried for decades.

Whether you're navigating a personal healing journey or seeking clarity about recurring emotional patterns—this conversation is a game-changer. You’ll leave feeling validated, seen, and so ready to turn your wound into your superpower.

MORE FROM LISA TAHIR

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You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. Have you ever felt like you're doing all the right things, but you've still find yourself bumping up against the same emotional patterns again and again?

What if there was a deeper cosmic reason why and an empowered path to healing it? This week we're [00:01:00] honored to welcome Lisa Tahir, licensed clinical social worker, author of the Chiron Effect, healing our Core Wounds through Astrology, empathy and Self-Forgiveness. host of the All Things therapy podcast and all around transformational guide.

Lisa blends traditional therapy with spiritual wisdom, astrology, energy healing, and her own groundbreaking method called psycho astrology to help you understand and heal your core wounding. The hidden emotional themes you've carried your whole life.

If you've never heard of Chiron in astrology, you're in for a cosmic aha moment. Lisa will guide us through how this wounded healer archetype reveals the emotional vulnerabilities chosen, chosen by us to experience so that and more importantly,

we can transmute them into strength, purpose, and emotional freedom. Whether you're navigating a personal healing journey or asking clarity about reoccurring emotional patterns, this conversation is a game changer. You'll leave feeling seen, supported, [00:02:00] and supercharged for your next chapter. We are so excited.

Let's dive in. Hi, Lisa. Hi, Karen. Hi. 

Karen: Hi, Lisa. 

Lisa: Hey Robyn. Hey Karen. Thank you so much for having me on Seeking Center. I'm really thrilled to be here. 

Karen: We cannot wait for this conversation. And we were actually just talking about it earlier today. It is gonna be a cosmic aha moment, I think because so many people who love astrology learn all the things that are great about them, might not necessarily understand that they came in with certain things to really do and heal within their lives.

And that's the Chiron. And I've heard about Chiron, but until I read your book, I didn't understand the opportunity that Chiron actually was giving to me. So I cannot wait yeah. So let's talk about what is Chiron 

Robyn: and why is it such a powerful key to our emotional healing?

Lisa: So I came to know Chiron through the vantage point of being a psychotherapist for over 25 [00:03:00] years. And. 10 years ago, I was meditating asking Universe, why do I have so many successful clients, yet they're still experiencing anxiety and depression. Additionally, why was I still experiencing anxiety and depression having been a client and therapy for most of my life, being very self-aware and I felt frustrated at.

Kind of hitting an invisible door or roadblock. And I simply started to hear the word Chiron, that little still voice that I know you both and your audience is familiar with that Still voice Chiron. And at first I really wasn't impressed. I thought about being in grad school, learning about Carl Jung and the wounded healer archetype of Chiron.

And I just kinda dismissed it. But as we know, if we dismiss something meant for us, it just gets louder. And so I didn't wanna reach a pain point experience of that. So as I just continued to feel something around Chiron, I started to Google [00:04:00] and to research. And certainly Chiron is found in the archetypes of Carl Yung as well as in astronomy in our solar system, Chiron is designated as both a minor planet and a comet in astronomy.

It has an odd elliptical orbit, the first of its class called the Centor class in astronomy. Orbiting between Saturn and Uranus, and it was named Chiron to denote the Greek mythological character. Chiron. He was the wounded healer. When you go to the doctor and you see the staff of medicine, the staff with the two snakes intertwined, Chiron gave that to Licious, who he mentored and taught about medicine and healing pharmacy therapy.

So again, I'm like, okay, universe, this is cool. This is interesting. Then I was led to astrology and this Chiron placement in our birth chart. Just like your sun sign, your moon, your Venus Chiron is in one of [00:05:00] the 12 signs Aries through Pisces, and really illuminates for us an area of vulnerability.

And it's on a spectrum. It's vulnerability up to and including core wounding when you've experienced some deep traumas in your life. And that's where I spent three years researching and really immersing myself in this language, this symbolic language of Chiron and what our wounds want to teach us.

It's innate to flinch away from the parts of ourselves we deem is not good enough or unworthy, and instead of burying them, when we really uncover them and learn to love this very important part of ourselves, that's how we really transform these areas of our lives. What do you both think about that?

Karen: for me, now that I know what mine is, I think it's been one of the most revealing things about my core nature that I didn't understand. And to your point about the people that you've met with that may on the outside [00:06:00] feel success or feel like they've accomplished a lot in their life, you cannot avoid that Chiron lesson that you're here to learn.

And for me, I told Robyn just right before we started recording, I didn't recognize it until I saw it spelled out that way, and my husband actually pointed out to me exactly what my Chiron my wound was. Yeah. Even knowing it, he was describing it to me this morning and I said, I don't understand why.

I'm like that. And then when I read my traits, it was truly an aha moment. And so now I wanna learn more. Now I wanna learn how do I heal through that? So Robyn, 

Robyn: I Agree completely, wholeheartedly with everything you just said. And I think it is an aha moment and I think for most people who.

After this episode, go read your book, figure out where theirs lives. They will have a similar aha moment. And I think to what you also said about, you [00:07:00] can walk through life and what you were saying, Lisa, it's gonna hit you on the head at some point . Like at some point you can ignore it and push it.

And something is going to really call your attention. And it may take decades, but it's gonna happen. And then, at that point, it's gonna probably take you out for a little bit so that you really can work on this. And now we can at least put. Words to what it is. Yes. I think that's what the beautiful thing that you are giving to people is that gift of understanding.

Karen: For me too, it's like the why do I feel this way? I don't understand it doesn't really correspond to my childhood. It doesn't really make sense to me. And now that I understand it's something within my chart it's helping me to understand that it's almost like another layer of things that I need to look at and heal through.

Robyn: Which for us is all about getting to the center Yes. Of what it all is, right? Yeah. That's we're doing and we are so grateful that we have now connected so that we can help others. Yes. [00:08:00] Better understand it's like a little bit of a fast track in some ways to, it is understanding what you need to 

Lisa: work on. And also you and Karen, because of what you've been doing professionally as well, is Seeking Center Podcast. You've both naturally been completely healing and transforming this Chiron vulnerability by connecting with people, sharing guests and episodes to help people really remember, I think who we are truly at our core.

Seeing through all the people, places and things and such that distracts us to really remember how worthy we are, how loved we are, how valuable we are, and the importance of affirming that for ourselves and not just waiting for it to come from the outside where it can be hit or miss.

Robyn: That's right. I would love for you to also explain psycho astrology. Can you walk through what that means? 

Lisa: Yes. So I love language. Your word is your wand. Florence Scobel Hin [00:09:00] said that in the thirties. I don't know if you know her work. I love her work. She was born in the late 18 hundreds.

She was a new thought leader in the thirties along with Earnest Holmes. And she talks about, your word is your wand and what we speak cast spells literally. That's why it's called spelling. And it's oh my God. You're like, 

Karen: aha moment. I just feel 

Robyn: like Quoted the 

Karen: day. Quoted 

Robyn: the day. Yeah, exactly.

there's so much, even when you just started before with the symbol that we all see from like a medical perspective, Okay, keep going. 

Lisa: and I credit Florence Hin because she really illuminated this for me, the power of our word. So I encourage everyone to everyday speak blessings upon yourself, health, wellbeing, safety for your children, your family, your community.

That our word really sets the tone for our lives, and that relates to the thoughts we're thinking about ourselves and about our world. We're thinking 70 to 80,000 thoughts [00:10:00] a day, and while we're not aware of all of those, we can absolutely grab onto a few of those every day and notice how we feel when you feel an ouch or an ugh.

You're thinking something in the opposite direction of what you want, being in fear or anxiety versus when you're intending things to go well, even if you don't know the exact path. 

So for me, I love language. It's really fun for me. So I trademarked psycho astrology. It's simply the intersection between your personal psychology and your natal astrology. And I just thought it's cool to use language to create something that people can really get behind to understand themselves more de deeply.

Karen: And Lisa, just for our listeners too, can you describe is this a practice that you have that people can meet with you and understand more one-on-one. 

Robyn: when a client comes to you are you like, okay, now tell me your birth Yeah. Your birthplace so I can figure out your birth chart and then we'll, put it together.

So 

Lisa: when I first meet with someone, I start with what's going on for [00:11:00] you? What got you to reach out? Because I really want you to feel seen and heard versus me doing a cookie cutter approach. Yeah. So I listen first and as I feel and sense, ooh, I think it's gonna help them to know about Chiron.

I always get a date of birth. May I have your place of birth and time of birth? If you know it, I really wanna look into your Chiron placement. I think it'll help you with this issue. So I'll weave it in as it makes sense and is helpful for the person. 

Karen: And how often is it that, that becomes the root cause of maybe they're being stuck?

 is it our core wound that we are wrestling with? Unknowingly unconsciously. 

Lisa: I think it depends on your level of self-awareness and how invested you are in personal transformation. I think people like both of you, and I imagine a lot of listeners and viewers of this show are really about spiritual development and personal transformation.

And so my intuitive sense says that everyone is on the path to healing. We're wired that way. The body [00:12:00] loves to heal and we're connected to source energy, that part of us that can never be harmed or shaken. So there's always an innate healing happening. Sometime I think we resist it through feeling confused, unworthy, uncertain, and there are things that we experience that cloud our clarity around the healing process for us.

And so when we start to really understand that there's an area of vulnerability in our lives meant to. Help us love ourselves more, help us to make peace even with the past and forgiving oneself is really key. So there are practices Yes. That I use, I love reflecting on a day and forgiving the day if that's needed for something that came up.

And maybe you do this weekly if daily feels a bit too much, or on a birthday, a good time to really take an inventory of where you've been and where you wanna go. And I think practicing self-forgiveness is very key because we were [00:13:00] taught forgiveness, usually in the concept of pertaining to someone else besides ourselves.

It's so 

Robyn: true, Lisa. 

Yes. That is, it's come up a couple times in all of our over 200 podcasts, but I think I wanna underline that you need to forgive yourself first. 

We are not taught that. 

Lisa: Yeah. And one of your guests that I really enjoyed listening to, the woman who was talking about how to protect your energy, being mindful, it was such a good show how , you can light, we do crystals or Palo Santo.

'cause it gives us permission, so to speak, to let go of things that don't belong to us. And I believe she talked as well about forgiveness and the importance of, but were 

Robyn: in Courtney. 

Lisa: Yeah. It was a really beautiful episode. 

Robyn: And so let's talk about core wounding.

Lisa: . As the 

Robyn: emotional vulnerability that we carry through life. And how has understanding this transformed your own life? 

Lisa: For me, myself personally, yes. When I learned about my Chiron being in the sign of [00:14:00] Aries, which we'll talk about for you Robyn as well, and having to do with this wounding and vulnerability in my core sense of myself and my own self-esteem, it made sense why I pursued so many.

Achievements yet I didn't quite feel connected to them. It's almost oh my gosh, is that me who did all these things? There was a disconnect between really owning that and feeling proud. I think somehow I picked up along the way you shouldn't feel proud. That's boastful but to really feel proud and relish that I created these things because I love people.

I love helping people heal and feel better. And that's so meaningful to me. My purpose is really to connect with others and help you really be the version of yourself that you want. And yet I wasn't allowing myself to feel proud of that. So it really started to shift that. Okay, let's pause on doing any more things.

Let's like really get with yourself, Lisa, Go through the way I've been harsh and critical [00:15:00] of myself rather than encouraging and start to really change out my inner dialogue to be encouraging and to allow myself to rest more. I think a lot of us with this Chiron and Aries placement, it's about learning how to truly pause and smell the roses and like really enjoy yourself and your life and permit yourself to have more pleasure and happiness rather than always.

Pursuing something that does light you up, but it can deplete you when you're not taking time for yourself. I see you nodding Robyn. Yeah, it resonates. 

Robyn: It resonates 

Lisa: big time. And both of you, your Chiron placements, yours, Robyn and Aries, and yours, Karen and Pisces, there's a similar healing journey that you both have been on, and I'm excited to share what came up for me when we get to that part.

Robyn: And so once you understood this for you, how did things change? 

Lisa: Things changed because I felt more self-assured. I can also relate to some of the other [00:16:00] placements of Chiron, and I think most of us can, when you've lived enough life and been through enough experiences, we've experienced Chiron and Taurus speaks to neglect, either being neglected by a caretaker, maybe they had an addiction, maybe you have an addiction and you're neglecting yourself and Chiron and Gemini speaking to this misattunement where you're not feeling seen or heard though.

And it's very frustrating 'cause you feel like you're being clear, but you're misunderstood a lot. So I started to really, as an empath, be able to empathize more to my own experiences, and that helped me to help others empathize to themselves more, rather than be so harsh and critical believing that's going to change things.

It might for a hot minute, but it's not gonna give you that long lasting transformation and change that will keep you really feeling purposeful. 

Robyn: And I also hear too, from what you're saying in feeling more self-assured is not giving your [00:17:00] power away to other people. 

Lisa: That's a big one to learn.

I think as women too, I think as women that we tend to wear a lot of hats and have a lot of roles and most of the women I know are such givers and I think it's easy for us to put others first and it's a delight yet also learning that it's okay to say, you know what? Let me check my schedule and get back to you, or, I would love to do that, but it's just not gonna work right now.

Let me get back to you or circle back in six months. And learning just some small little key phrases can really help to free up time and energy to care more for ourselves, including letting others know, Hey, I'm reaching. Depletion or critical mass I really need you to help me.

I need you to take this off my plate. Can you do that? And being more assertive about what we need and more direct rather than passive. 

Karen: So can we talk about these 12 core wounds and how does one start to understand how [00:18:00] to find that within their own chart for themselves?

Lisa: I have an interactive website. It's free for everyone. You go to my website and you click on order my book, and it'll give you a place to enter your date of birth, your place of birth, and if you have it, your time of birth. And you. Hit inner and it just generates Chiron in blank in the blank house.

And so it's very easy 'cause I had a hard time finding where my Chiron was Googling, so I made it simple that anyone, you don't even have to buy my book. You can go just do that for yourself to have. And so from there is where you get your Chiron placement. And it all reflects a different aspect of our lives, of our selfhood.

Each placement speaks to that. And I don't know if this might be a good time to, to share both of yours. Yeah if you feel open to that. 

Karen: Yeah, let's do it. We'll help people understand how you Yeah, I 

Lisa: think so. Like where the rubber meets the road. Yes. Okay. Karen would you like to go first? Sure.

Okay. So your Chiron is in the sign of [00:19:00] Pisces in your fifth house. The fifth house speaks to your creativity and your self-expression, how you play pleasure and romance. And some of the questions to ask yourself around how Chiron shows up in your life is where might you need to expand into more allowance of your playfulness and of your pleasure?

Are you making adequate time or do you need to make more time to be creative? Be it cooking, art, theater, traveling, nature, just really creating the time. Is that on point?

Robyn: I can't even, I know Karen needs to talk, but I Okay. You hit that on the head, okay. Yes. Okay. 

Lisa: So then also to really this Chiron and Pisces, you're innately so intuitive.

You have real intuitive superpowers on the empath, highly sensitive person spectrum. Is that true for you? 

Karen: Very true, 

Lisa: yes. And so because of that, you're really good at attuning to the needs of others and [00:20:00] really meeting them and serving them. Yet somehow for yourself, you can be really self-critical and undermine that undermines your self-esteem.

And there might have even been some betrayals that you've experienced in your life, and it's really important for you to first forgive yourself if you've been feeling responsible for those things at all. And then maybe forgiving the past, forgiving the version of yourself that you were when those things happened, just to really.

And I say gently 'cause these are some things I sense might've been, were really painful. So healing this betrayal so that you don't betray yourself by overgiving. By overcompensating. Is that resonating? 

Karen: Yeah very much I think the other piece of it when I was reading through the chapter for me too, was because of that, I think at this point in my life, sometimes I don't allow myself to have deep relationships.

I pull back and I'm really good at the surface. But when it comes to [00:21:00] going. Deeper. Yeah. I'm pulling back and that's what my husband was talking about today. He's I wonder what that was in your childhood. Yeah. That made you feel that way and I couldn't figure it out.

And then maybe it's c 

Lisa: The good news about what you just shared is I also took a note that came to mind that since you know how to set healthy boundaries today to trust yourself, that should you perceive someone is showing up in a way that's not for you, you're more than able today to handle that without going through a similar kind of experience of your past and to really nurture healthy boundaries as well as your spirituality and honoring yourself and valuing your self worth.

That I sense you are absolutely doing that. Maybe to be less afraid of letting others in. You have some people in your life that you can absolutely trust to have your back. 

Karen: That is true. But it's interesting how, like with these things sometimes you can't explain why you feel a certain way or why you're doing a certain thing.

And this for me really [00:22:00] helped me understand the why, so I'm so glad. 

Lisa: there's one more little piece that I sense might be in your past that because this has been challenging for you, the existential crisis and people and situations and trust that if you don't confront them as you are, you might be led to escaping them and sometime addictions or addicted patterns that aren't healthy for you could have been operating to take you more away from yourself rather than towards.

And I don't know if that's ever been true for you. 

Karen: Yes, it's very true. And I think I'm always the open book but avoiding. 

is my almost addiction. Okay. of really saying, you know what, I'm not gonna focus on that right now. I'm gonna look over here. So that's the thing. And the boundary thing is always something that I'm consciously trying to work on. I wanted to ask, so even though my Chiron is in Pisces, what's the significance of, the house. Specifically. So the house? Yes. Good question. The fifth house is creativity.[00:23:00] 

Lisa: Family pleasure play. Family travel so the fifth house. So the house placement is where this vulnerability or wounding on a spectrum manifests. So it manifests in your fifth house things, but some people don't know their time of birth and that's what generates the house placement. So don't be worried about that.

You're going to know where this manifests, how it shows up. So for you, since you knew your time of birth, it said fifth house in these areas of your self-expression. 

Robyn: and 

Karen: using my voice too, I think that's the other piece of it, of when you avoid or you step back or you don't trust, you tend to stay silent about the emotion.

It's like putting that barrier up so that. you don't put yourself out and be vulnerable again. And so it's easier just to keep all of that within than it is to, practice the trust practice, voicing the things that really matter. And also saying, as you said [00:24:00] earlier I can't do that today, do now.

So that 

Lisa: you're moving towards your center rather than I'm seeing seeking center behind you. So you wanna do things that cause you to feel like you're moving towards your center. And it might be that you do quietly avoid a conflict, but you do it intentionally. I think that compartmentalization can sometimes help you to address things in a way that makes sense for you and your energy.

So don't throw that all the way out. I think be mindful of how to use that skill and coping mechanism to bring you closer to your center. 

Karen: Yeah, I love that. I would actually say too, that what was an aha for me in seeing this is that as I get older, the Chiron is getting louder. It's definitely getting, like you're noticing more your needs.

I'm noticing it more then Yeah. Is younger and so that's helpful too. Yeah. Because it's reminding me that I'm here to heal through that and that I can't just distract myself from it. you said it's gonna be get louder and louder Pay attention.

And 

Lisa: I think it's cool to note that [00:25:00] Mother Teresa had her Chiron in the sign of Pisces and she served the world so beautifully. So to keep that in mind, you really have this heart of service and healing, and you don't need to be afraid anymore. And to just really be in touch with your center. And I use in that chapter, a metaphor from aviation when you get on the airplane and they say to put on your oxygen mask first before even assisting your child. That's the visual you can have for yourself, to always be oxygenating yourself and all the ways that means for you. 

Karen: I can't say enough about how helpful that has been.

And

Robyn: I just wanna add, knowing Karen's journey it is these patterns that it's like, there are different cycles and they may be with somewhat different people at different times in her life, but the words that you used they're really so relevant to these different.

Experiences that Karen has had, I'm sorry, and has dealt with, but there are these whispers of certain things because there's [00:26:00] still a little stuff in there, that she has to like work through.

We all have them. We're talk, we do, we're still alive and growing and, yeah. Yeah. But I can't get over the specificity of it. 

Lisa: Because you wrote it. Karen. That's right. And you wrote it Robyn and I did. That's right. For, that's , we wrote this birth chart.

It was architected by us. 

Robyn: Wow. it's helpful 

Karen: to know and to be able to recognize it. And 

Lisa: to validate yourself for the journey you've been on healing, it really validates like I've been on my path. did you feel that way, Karen? Yes. Yeah.

Karen: A thousand percent. 

Lisa: I'm on my path. Yeah. And 

Karen: it's just reminding me that I'm still here. To continue to grow and work through those. So helpful. Awesome. All right, let's hear Robyn. 

Lisa: Okay, Robyn, so your Chiron is in the sign of Aries in the third house and your third house where this manifests, speaks to communication siblings, the spoken word, written word, using your phone, email, text, devices about communication and grade school years as well.

And so for you, some of the things to ask yourself, [00:27:00] which I sense you have to do with your values and your worth. And if you were ever bullied, sorry, I'm skipping around a bit, but you might've experienced some kind of bullying or something in school. Look at how you're communicating. 'cause it's really important to you to feel seen and heard and validated authentically.

And maybe at some point you used to outsource that more to others. But I, since you've come back to validating your own sense or validating yourself, approving of yourself, because for you, your mission in life has been seeking a strong and stable identity, which you've actually already had, but you might've deemed it to be weak or not good enough.

And the self-criticism has really been like an obstacle to you feeling as happy and fulfilled as you can be. And I sense you really let go of a lot of that. Is that true? 

Robyn: And I would say I was never bullied. Okay. However , I feel there were times, especially in my middle school and high school years, where I didn't feel seen.

Lisa: Okay. [00:28:00] That was, I didn't feel, 

Robyn: I didn't feel seen for who I really am. 

And that was really challenging for me. I felt like. There was a lot of other factors I think that played into that. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Robyn: That were going on in my life. But I felt really, like I wasn't seen for me, and I wanted so much , for people to understand like what I really was about.

and I started to find that more and more as I went to college. And then when I started working, especially for Oprah. But even within that framework and in that culture, there were some times I felt not seen, even though I was overseeing Yes. A lot of things and people and content and all things.

But even within that, there were times I felt really unseen. 

Karen: And I can add, I think, those timeframes specifically, I. It wasn't your authentic self you were filling a role. That's right. And you were doing the job that you were asked to do within that [00:29:00] framework, but at your essence, at your core, you weren't being your full, authentic self which is why you decided to move on.

And I would 

Robyn: say the most authentic, I was actually in the times I felt. On a daily basis that I felt in flow was with my team. With our team, okay. Yeah. Yeah. With our oprah.com team. I did feel actually like myself and it was more in the larger organization where I didn't feel seen.

And so I think it's, whether or not that's my perception, right? Sure. Yeah. Of that maybe the case, but that was my perception. But within our team, I could be myself which is what gave me the confidence along with doing some really deep soul work to leave, honestly. Yeah. And know that I could really be and do on my own and be my most authentic self with Karen.

So when my light saw Karen's light, it was like, oh yes, we can do this together. But it makes so much sense, what you're saying. A hundred percent. That theme [00:30:00] is something that I have. Definitely dealt with from the time that I was young.

Lisa: And I think something that'll really help you should you ever feel again, like I'm not being seen or heard here, instead of turning to that feeling bad, is to really get clear pause and be like, okay, am I seeing myself?

Am I hearing myself To really self attune and affirm? Because the most important person, to know what you're really meaning is you. And to validate that as being good enough, as being sufficient and from a more centered place within yourself, you'll be able then if there needs to be a verbal correction or something, you'll be able to make it in a way that's authentic and aligned.

Or maybe not, maybe at times it's just enough for you to know what you've meant and also to the things that have been painful in the past if they ever come up. Something that's so helpful I find is to just close your eyes and. Put your hand over your heart and call up that experience and to say to yourself, I'm just so sorry you went through that, because [00:31:00] sometime you might have not received an apology that was needed.

So to apologize to that younger self, I'm just so sorry you went through that. I'm here with you. Yes. And really hold yourself. That can really help grow you up through that experience to present day person age. I 

Robyn: love that. and I'm really taking in what you're saying 'cause I think it's actually really deep and really helpful.

I know that can. Be very healing for me. Absolutely. . And to your point, those theme themes still come up. They 

Lisa: do Yeah. 

Robyn: Worthiness and all of that and 

Lisa: your value, Absolutely. And even having to work hard to be loved, that can be a Chiron and Aries really dropping that I need to keep adding value or do rather than just being, you're so lovable as you are and for you to really know and feel that and allow others to give to you.

Robyn: Thank you for saying that. 

Lisa: You're 

Robyn: welcome. Yeah. As Karen was nodding when you were first talking about how this applies to somewhat of what your journey is about too. Yeah. it's I can't explain it, but the need to do 

Is just so [00:32:00] strong.

Karen: Yeah. And I think you were mentioning devices and all of that, I've seen Robyn too, and she's so good at it but trying to be there everywhere for everyone Yes.

Immediately when they're, so to answer and respond and to email and all the things Yes. 

Lisa: Be on the devices to get back to people. 

Karen: Yeah. It's a thing. 

Robyn: It's definitely a thing for me, for sure. 

Karen: Yeah. And it's a thing for a lot of people. It's just the world that we're living in, but I think it's noticing and thinking for a moment about being 

Robyn: mindful.

Yes. And I think we were saying I think it was interesting what you said, Karen. There are certain elements as you get older, get louder. And there are certain elements as you get older, you realize oh, okay, I have created boundaries around that. I have done this.

 we're works in progress. Yes, absolutely. but it's really helpful to have the understanding 

Lisa: of where you are and what's happening so that you can really focus, I think your affirmations, your meditations On these issues that center, that are your core issues of your center, [00:33:00] your identity, and really wanting to feel connected to your identity in a meaningful and authentic way.

Karen: absolutely. Lisa, is there a specific this might be going a little too deep, but is there a specific reason we come into this lifetime with that specific Chiron? Choice. in your mind, is this coming from past life or is this just an overall decision or maybe it's both a decision of what we wanna try to work through in this lifetime?

Lisa: I tend to think it's more of this latter part of what you said in my experience it relates to and others might have a different experience that it's really something we wanted to experience. and I don't remember creating this kind of soul contract or this plan for myself, but what I do know is that what I've experienced, I've chosen for it to be for good to come of it, and I've chosen for everything to have an optimistic lens.

How might this be helpful for me to others? Like how might I use this as a gift, as an opportunity rather than [00:34:00] being taken down by it and staying there, which you might need a little time to be down there and feeling your feelings yet at some point. The self responsibility piece that though what happened to you wasn't your fault.

It's our responsibility to decide we want to heal from this instead of be bitter or resentful, and we all have that choice. You don't have to make that choice. But I chose for my experiences to make me in the world a better and more loving place. And I think that's somehow part of this bigger plan.

Should we choose to accept that? 

Robyn: Oh, I feel that. I feel that big time. , I know in all the different points of my life that have, I think, cracked me open in different ways. Where we are now and what we're creating with Seeking Center is all about helping others.

and it's not like we know it all. we know some things. Yeah. And we're sharing them. Yes. And we're keeping on the journey together. And the whole goal with [00:35:00] helping others understand that there are resources out there that can we connect them to why they're here.

Yes. That is the goal. 

Lisa: It is. 

Robyn: And it's like in the most unexpected ways, who would've known that we could find Chiron and Chiron with our chart would really be able to put words to feelings that we've had Since we were little beings. Exactly. 

Lisa: And that we can change those patterns. That's right.

They don't dictate our lives. 

Karen: And I think what else is helpful too is that you give people a lens to look at even their astrology there's so much information and you're. And I think this is just one that I think can really help hone in on places where we might just be, it might be pretty deep and we may not

recognize that. And so it's great to know , all of our talents are. And opportunities are, but I think we're, like you said, we're here to work that healing as well in our lives. And if we can really understand the purpose and what it is, it gives us so many more clues to being able to [00:36:00] work through.

It 

Lisa: What do I do when I feel sad? What do I need? Or anger? And for you, Robyn, also this Chiron in areas is to be honest about your anger and to work through it in a productive way and not suppress it or pretend it's not there. I forgot that just popped up from, I don't know if that's been relevant for you, but it just popped up.

Robyn: Yeah, for me it's like. My anger is around some specific things and people, I'd say in my life. And it's been a journey for me to understand how to own that, and then learn how to cope. And I just wanna share with others one of the biggest things that I've learned is, number one I can cry and crying helps me to release those emotions.

And then honestly writing letters Yes. Whether it's to myself or to a specific person that I may never give that letter to. Most of the time I don't, It's just to get it out. That to me has been such release for me. So if you've never done that, [00:37:00] write a letter to yourself, your younger self.

 And with forgiveness, number one, being in there and also to somebody else and I've written a number of letters to people that have, in my view, have upset me and never given it to them. But yet then I can go about my relationships and my life in a much more peaceful way. 

Lisa: I agree. And you might wanna burn the letter too.

Yes. You're saying you've done that. I agree. Yes. Yes. It's awesome to do that. Yes. Really cathartic to watch and in a loving release or an angry release. Yes. Whatever's needed to the burning and seeing the smoke can really help. I think an emotion come out of your body and you be at peace 

Karen: And I wanna add too, in your book, Lisa, you give a lot of these really great practices that are super relevant to wherever Chiron is falling. Thank you. As well as, you really break it down, down in a very practical way without getting into too much of the nitty gritty, which I really loved and feel is so helpful [00:38:00] in working.

Thank you, 

Lisa: Karen. I like practical wisdom, like things you can start doing today. 

Karen: Love that. And I also just wanna add really quick to on Robyns is that what I've noticed is her ability now to be able to give voice to her if she is angry. And I so appreciate that because I am not good at that and because she has been able to communicate with me.

 I'm learning Yeah. How to do it better in my own world. And so it's that going through and learning about your Chiron, working through that you can really help others by your example too. So it's just another one of those layers of like, why do this? Because you really can help if you've helped yourself, you can help others too.

Lisa: Yes. And I think you both might wanna consider taking the date that you started Seeking Center a significant date of your podcast, of this business and putting it in to generate a Chiron placement. Whoa. Because then it can help you navigate. Has this been a core conversation or issue that we're [00:39:00] helping each other heal with this show?

I'm just feeling like that could be really fun for you both and really confirm. Sorry. We love that. Listen, 

Robyn: we have done Ash Records with Seeking Center. We have done intuitive readings with Seeking Center. We will do this. Okay, good. I love that we've done numerology with Seeking Center.

We have to do this. A great idea. And tell us too, what was the moment for you that really did crack you open and help you realize that healing was a non-negotiable for you? 

Lisa: I think I got sick and tired of. Repeating in my mind like an old narrative around being unworthy, undeserving, and experiencing those patterns in my life with others.

And where I just had a moment of okay, this is not why I'm here. Like I wanna know why I'm here. And I just started, I've always been a seeker and just wanting to know truth. And I feel like God, the universe really lovingly has led me to this information. And I feel like my life [00:40:00] brought me here and my questions brought me here, my desire to know.

How to live authentically and from my center and from a healed and joyful place. 'cause we can't give from depletion. We can give from being full and overflowing and that's who I wanna be in the world. So it was this real inward journey of looking at myself and changing some of my own habits and behaviors to be who I am today and still be on this journey with you all, like we spoke about.

It's always unfolding and being more excited about that. Like, how good can this get, really putting out how great can my life be and how much can I serve and really be seen and heard and other people like seeing them light up. It just is so meaningful to me and that's why I'm here.

And I think you both as well. 

Robyn: Absolutely. it is a strong desire to be of service. 

Karen: Yeah. 

Robyn: And then for every person that of service is different. And for us it is the sharing of 

Karen: Yeah. And what's so magical about this Lisa in particular there's so many things you can do [00:41:00] in the spiritual world, right?

So many practices that you can try. But what I love about what you're calling out specifically, it's people are always looking for that tangible thing that they can clinging to that they can be like, oh, that's really true. That's really validating. And I think the Chiron aspect is something that is that aha, that could really be a gateway for people to wanting to explore and learn more.

It's once they learn and can validate within themselves what that Chiron is for them, then it's almost I wanna learn more about my astrology. I wanna learn more about that energy practice that can help me heal. I wanna learn more about my soul plan and why I came in to do this. Work.

So it's just, I love these very simple in a way, gateway opportunities to learn about yourself that can call you to actually explore and learn even more. 

Lisa: And I know you both are about walking the walk that, that people are speaking and Chiron really is about that too. This personal responsibility piece.

it can [00:42:00] ground you in behaviors that are in alignment with your values. Chiron likes. really aligned living and walking your talk and really living what you say you are and are doing. And I know you both are about that as well. So it can help somebody that maybe has trouble with that to find that moral compass for themselves more specifically.

Robyn: And actually understanding your astrology. And once you do know your Chiron, but understanding the pattern of that Chiron within your chart is really helpful. Chiron has been very active in my specific chart Over the last couple years. Interesting. Like more so than in other years okay.

This whole idea has definitely been coming to fruition more in my face than let's say in other decades of my life. Yeah. It's really interesting. So it's 'cause you're ready. You're ready. And so I, I also encourage people to better understand their own charts and so not just where Chiron is, but where is it in the overall, blueprint of placement. [00:43:00] Yes. Yeah. And where it is this year for you too 

Karen: helps. 

Robyn: And so I also wanted to ask you from an intuitive perspective how you came into better understanding your own. Abilities within the intuitive world. 

Lisa: Oh, that's a great question, Robyn.

I've always been sensitive and curious and in my younger years I would be criticized for the, oh, you're too sensitive. I think a lot of, you're too sensitive, let things roll off your back like a duck. And I promise I tried, but it just never really, worked. And so I've started.

To just know I'm sensitive and it means I'm not gonna go to certain places or do certain things. 'cause the energy is just too much for me to screen out. So I've learned to honor myself in that way. And also, I was born and raised in New Orleans where I am today, and I moved out to Los Angeles 11 years ago and so I divide my year, I spend part of the year in la, part of the year in New Orleans.

And in LA I was exposed to so many practitioners and I did intuitive [00:44:00] development classes and mediumship classes. And I got certified in Reiki and I learned their names, their words that define the way a client could sit down. And I started to see a map over their head of people and things. And I could, in my mind, make connections without knowing the information I didn't know that had names.

God, it helps so much being in Los Angeles. That's so cool. Yeah, it's been cool. So I've, again, life leading me as I've been open and listening to what's next and taking those steps. 

 

Lisa: And I think we're all invited to do that. We're all invited to become aware of our intuitive gifts and use them to navigate our world more seamlessly.

That you can just perceive when something's for you or it's not, rather than having to have the full blown experience and life can just become a lot more easy when you're listening to yourself. We all have an intuition that is speaking loudly. So true. 

Robyn: I hope people too understand from an intuitive perspective is if you're curious, just start to understand it better.

There's so many people who [00:45:00] have, there's books and courses and all of that. 'cause not you do that for anyone else. Just better understanding your own. 

 System it like and how you are translating things. hearing them. Are you seeing them? Exactly. And understanding energy overall, There's something to all of it. 

Karen: And Lisa, so in terms of this work, do you recommend layering it with other modalities, other kinds of energy work as well? 

Lisa: I think that would speak to the person whoever's listening, watching and interested and curious to, come to this work in a way that speaks to you, because what I'm saying, it's said in other languages as well through different people and paradigms.

So I think to find a paradigm that you really connect with I mean I love all different, like a holistic approach that really works for me. And I sense it works for both of you. Yes, definitely. So I think a holistic approach can really help to really fully heal [00:46:00] yourself and address things that maybe have gone unaddressed to feel like you're in a good place in your life.

Robyn: Exactly. Are there certain rituals that you are practicing? I do 

Lisa: I'm excited to have you both on old things Therapy podcast, 'cause I'm gonna be asking you both these questions. Every morning I get my black coffee and I sit down and meditate. One of my cats sits on my lap, smelly cat.

And I try to do like as much time as I have. Sometime it's 30 minutes, sometime it's five. But just start the day before I check an email or text messages. Just thank you. Thank you for today. Please give me guidance and speak through me, live through me and, bless me. And just to be really tuned in to.

Universal wisdom, infinite intelligence, unconditional love to really align myself, and then I'll start opening emails and moving through my day. 

 

Lisa: How about you both? 

Robyn: Yeah I don't even get out of bed yet. I do that in bed because that's, I know for me in my house, the moment I get out bed, , it can get a little loud.

Yes. So I really [00:47:00] try to do it before getting out of bed. I do something very similar with water. I have water next to my bed and I will do something similar that you said. In terms of setting it, asking a question, how can I serve? What do I need to know today? Setting an intention

And then I actually do some reiki on myself every morning and on my water, and then I drink my water. That's awesome. For me, it's like medicine, I feel in the best way possible. It's like vitamins, energizes me in a way, and I know it works and it's free.

Lisa: Yes, that's the best.

Karen, what about you, Karen? 

Karen: I'm very similar to you, Lisa. I need my coffee. 

So that's part of my ritual. But my thing is I get up early before everybody else in the house. I have my very special place where I sit and I use Insight Timer. Their music, Robyn knows it very well.

It's their angelic music, and I love it so much because I spend about 10 minutes of that just breathing to the [00:48:00] sound of that angelic frequency, just to revive me more than anything else. But then I tune in and I spend the next 15 minutes or so just downloading whatever comes, that's my message for the day.

I also try to record my dream. Oh, wow. I've learned to do that. is just so helpful to, dive into that. So I capture that and then I pull a tarot card for the day usually. Okay. Yeah. What is my message for the day? what does spirit want me to know? And my other ritual is I read it at the end of the day oh, that's so cool.

And it's so helpful. I always find there's a message for me that I've received at the beginning of the day that is very relevant for me by the end of the day. So 

Lisa: what do you do when you pull a card and you're I don't want this. 

Karen: it happened recently, It does, but I always find. That is relevant. And it's not in a scary way. Yeah. Like usually in retrospect it's oh, or it's a warning for me, like in one case it was like, be careful what you say. Be careful of the words that you use. And I was triggered in [00:49:00] the day and I was like, wow, that was about.

 It's never been something like, oh, that's a terrible card. I like that. I allow it just to be a message. I don't necessarily even ask a question when I pull the card. Okay. What do I need to know for today? I've done it where I have asked questions but more often than not, it's just the message.

And I wanna say 95% of the time, it's always exactly right. it's always right on target for me.

Robyn: But I love you asked that because I think it was last week or two weeks ago, Karen and I both got these cards that like. They weren't. They were just not great in our opinion. I know what you, it was a bad card, but we were just both oh, okay. And that's why I had to 

Lisa: ask you, because I felt like maybe you felt that way too. Oh, what? Yeah. 

Robyn: And we both were like, that's weird.

We both got something. It was similar and 

Karen: Yeah. 

Robyn: And it totally made sense for the energy of the day. And that's the point I think, when we talk about all of this, it's all part of the journey. We didn't sign up to just like coast, we came here to do some work so that we can, grow as souls.

[00:50:00] And so we always remind ourselves of that on a daily basis. And it's important for everyone listening or hearing to know that that's the point, some days are gonna be so euphoric and incredible and others are gonna be a little more challenging. But that is what we came to experience.

Lisa: Yes. And I've learned that our emotions can be a guide, especially on the harder days to like, Hey, what information do you have for me to lean in? Yes. And really be with that part of yourself. 'cause even myself, sometime I'll resist that feeling and I'm like okay, let me, what's here for me? Just pause to sit down.

Maybe change your day if you need to create some more space even. And okay, What is this bringing up for me? What do I need? And it starts to get easier, I think, to navigate those moments. 

Robyn: And actually, it also brings up, when you say that if there is let's say a person that constantly brings some sort of feeling up for you.

it makes sense to take time to understand what is that person bringing up for you or Yes. What are you frustrated about with that person? Because it's [00:51:00] usually something that's within you. It's that whole mirroring aspect. Yeah. And I think that people who've never really had therapy don't know what that even means.

And I feel like you would be very qualified to speak to that. 

Lisa: Yeah. Like sometime if someone's been unkind to me and it really surprises me I'll sit and think, Lisa, where have I been unkind to myself? Am I being unkind to myself in some way? And it might not be obvious at first, but if you look a little deeper, like maybe I've been neglecting, maybe I've been overworking some time that I need for myself.

So it might not be that you're saying mean things. It might not be a literal mirroring, but more of a symbolic, how might I be, being harsh with myself and to ease up. And, when you'll notice the people that you're encountering are kinder, softer and to be aware and in touch with that.

Karen: Or maybe for people like me, it means I gotta draw a boundary. Yeah, that's right, Karen. Yeah. Not interact with that person anymore. Or stand up and say what I need to say. So yeah, 

Robyn: I just gotta come back to [00:52:00] you for a second with the Chiron, because even the word play with Karen. Yeah.

if Karen could play for most of the time she's a seeker, like all of us. Yes. And she's so in her element when she can just be more free, and not so tied down to a specific schedule. And so that word play that comes up a lot, because I know for Karen, like she's in her most joyous state when she is just like Sunday afternoon 

Lisa: Oh, yes.

Robyn: And can run around, like most of us. But there is something very for 

Lisa: Karen. I see that for you, Karen. Yes. So I just can't 

Karen: believe like that, even that word it's so true. Yeah. Like my word is frolic and I think love that. So my Leo that there's that lion aspect of me that wants to just go out and lay in the sun.

Lay in the sun. Yes. Yeah. Do it. And just breathe and all those things you need that you actually, 

Lisa: you need that to recharge and replenish. 

Karen: Yes. It's so true. I mean it literally [00:53:00] people, whoever's listening and watching do this because it just nailed it for me. 

Robyn: And before we go, Lisa, something that you talk about is being a vessel for spirits messages.

Is there one message that's been coming to you lately that we should all know or hear? 

Lisa: The one message that is consistent centers around unconditional love and really understanding what that looks like and means because it sounds so beautiful and the practical application has to do with loving ourselves, our lives, others, regardless of the manifested conditions of this moment.

To look beyond that and to try not to get so hooked up in that to really like unconditional, like I love myself unconditionally regardless of where my money is, where my relationships are, where my business is. cause I think that can be hard is humans human ing. We're so connected to our identities being wrapped up in various [00:54:00] things and to really reach for the unconditional love that's here for us.

And you might even hear things like, you're actually right on your path. I've got you. And it can soften and I think helpus d ay to day in our lives to listen for that unconditional love. 

Karen: Unconditional is the key, isn't it? It's like you can love someone who is difficult to love or may not even love you.

It means you. They don't have to love you back. And love can be about letting them be who they are and letting you be who you are. think you're right. People can misinterpret what we mean by unconditional love, by feeling like there has to be some magical interaction as a result of that.

And it's not it is for me, having that boundary of I love myself first and I'm gonna allow you to be exactly who you are. And that's, that's good. So it's things like that, you're right. It's like putting it into that proper perspective of what we actually really mean, in the world that we're living in right now.

Yeah. It's being unconditional. No matter what's going on. I'm still gonna be [00:55:00] unconditional in the love that I have for myself in the world. 

Robyn: Yes. And I think sometimes when you've had some of these experiences, even with meditation, I know for me, I've had different types of hypnosis and regression where I have been and felt what I would call unconditional love and source love.

Like where we come from because we all, every being on this planet, however they are showing up in the world, we all come from love no matter what. Yes. Yes. And I have felt that, and I know others probably have too, but it is like nothing I've ever felt.

In this lifetime. 'Cause it's just so great. And there's this knowing as you're saying and what comes to me on a daily and weekly basis when I channel messages is we are supported and we are loved. 

And so the fact that's what you are bringing up, I think is what everyone needs to hear.

You are supported and you are loved in ways you can't even see. And so at those times where you are feeling so [00:56:00] lonely or frustrated remember that for yourself and where you can for others be that unconditional love. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Robyn: Amen. funny when you were saying that my soul dog walked in and to me she represents unconditional love.

Oh 

Lisa: yeah. 

Robyn: And so I thought that makes sense. 'cause that's what a lot of yes animals can be for us.

Lisa: And those little synchronicities like that can really be delightful to notice them in your day. Like your doggy walking in at this moment. 

Robyn: She walked in right at that exact moment. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Karen: Lisa, can I ask one last question?

Yeah. What is the definition of wounded healer because it seems like a contradiction in terms in a way, right? how can someone who's wounded be a healer? What is the context of that? 

Lisa: The way I think of it, because that's stumped me too in the passage.

It's just an interesting term, the wounded healer. And I think the way I make sense of it is that living life, we've all experienced some wounding and. We're also seeking [00:57:00] healing for those wounds. I think it's a deep ask whether you're conscious or not. When you're hurt, you wanna be well. So I think the wounded healer is a part of being a human being here on earth that we're encountering.

And I think to be aware of that and be like, okay, there's some wounds I have to heal. Let's do it with more intention and more deliberateness, I think can help make that process easier and make our lives better and help us be happier. That's what I think. 

Karen: I was just thinking how empowering it feels in a way that term of, that we can be wounded and yet we can be healers at the same time.

And so it's through showing our wounds to others and. Doing the work of working through that wound. Yeah. That we heal ourselves and we can heal others as well. I just love the term of it because it's almost the definition of being human, We all are carrying around these wounds pre-planned or not pre-planned with chiro.

But it really is the essence of our [00:58:00] journey and the beautiful aspect of why we're here. It's never complete. It's just that we're, we're bringing that wound of ourselves to others and working our way through it. I'm inspired by those words. 

Robyn: Yeah. And the power of vulnerability. 

Karen: Yeah. Yeah.

Robyn: That's what it also brings up in those wounds, in the sharing of them, both being with ourselves, but then others, 

Lisa: being with others. Yeah. And being vulnerable where you're emotionally safe to be vulnerable. It can be so healing to, Support someone else in their vulnerability by being vulnerable. 

Robyn: And even honestly in this conversation today, being able to speak to some of those wounds, which honestly I haven't talked about all that much general and in public. I feel safe though I feel ready 

be able to say those things. 

Karen: And it connects us all, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. We're all being vulnerable. We're all being open and honest with who we are. None of us are perfect and we won't be. But it's that being open with the fact that we are here to learn and grow and on all the things that [00:59:00] kind of unites us together.

Lisa: Yes. And that we don't have to be perfect to really release Exactly. Perfectionism that can be so painful. Yeah. To one's self-esteem. So true in one's life. 

Robyn: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Lisa, you are a soul sister. 

Lisa: Yes. I'm so excited to have you both on my show and continue. I know this conversation.

We're excited. 

Robyn: There's much more to come. So much more. It really is. And we're just in the midst of so much with Seeking Center and we're really grateful now to have you part of this and 

Lisa: Me too. Thank you. 

Robyn: thank you. And so what's the best way for people to find you?

Lisa: I think it would be through my website, which is nola therapy.com. It stands for New Orleans los angeles therapy.com and that's also my Instagram. 

Robyn: Oh, I love that. And we'll have that obviously in our show notes as well as your book, which everybody should pick up. And whether you read it or you listen to it.

'cause you also have the audio book, The Chiron Effect, healing our [01:00:00] core wounds through astrology, empathy and self-forgiveness. And then your all things. Therapy podcast, which you can find wherever you listen to your podcast.

Lisa: Yes. Just like Seeking Center

Robyn: Thank you so much, Lisa. You're 

Lisa: welcome.

My delight.