Seeking Center: The Podcast

Science Meets Soul: Decoding Energy, Intuition + Healing Trauma - Episode 165

• Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Cody Isabel and Chloe Deutscher • Season 2 • Episode 165

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We are cracking open a conversation that bridges brains and vibes. Think: science meets soul, data meets divine downloads, and mental health meets manifestation.

We’re joined by two brilliant beings who are not only trailblazing individually but are also teaming up to flip the script on what it means to truly heal and thrive—Cody Isabel and Chloe Deutscher, co-hosts of The Decision Lab Podcast.

MEET OUR GUESTS
Cody brings the science—he’s a cognitive neuroscientist turned entrepreneur using AI, neurotech, and IFS psychotherapy to heal trauma and unlock human potential and specifically focused on innovative ways to heal Complex PTSD and empower high achievers and trauma survivors to live resilient, purpose-driven lives. He is the founder + CEO of Mind Brain Body Lab and the founder of MyCompanion. Ultimately, he is working to empower billions to pursue lives of purpose, bridging wellness and technology in ways that elevate humanity.

Chloe brings the soul—she’s a chemical engineer turned wellness alchemist, empowering women to embody their full potential through somatic practices, biohacking, and manifestation. Chloe has spent six years building and working in start-ups across neuroscience, psychedelics, and the supplement and wellness industries.

WHAT WE TALK ABOUT

  • How science supports energy healing + intuition
  • Internal Family Systems therapy vs. traditional therapy
  • Practical tools to regulate your nervous system (getting out of fight or flight!)
  • Why your wellness practices might need a reset
  • How to know what’s actually helpful vs. just hype (aka cold plunge!)

WHY YOU'LL LOVE IT
Together, they’re not only co-creating conversations about the future of mental health and wellness, they’re walking the talk in their own powerful ways.

If you've ever wondered what’s possible when you combine cutting-edge tech with heart-centered intention…or how to practically heal trauma while reconnecting with your soul’s purpose…this is the episode for you.

CONNECT WITH CODY + CHLOE

🎧 Listen to their podcast: The Decision Lab

Episode Mentioned: Ep. 27: Can Calm Be Instant? w/ JP Errico


 Make sure you're FOLLOWING Seeking Center, The Podcast, so you never miss an episode of life changing conversations, aha moments, and some deep soul wisdom.

Visit theseekingcenter.com for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter.

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. 

Robyn Miller: You know how we like to keep it real around here and this week we are cracking open a conversation that bridges brains and vibe. Think science meets soul data meets divine downloads and mental health meets manifestation. We're joined by two [00:01:00] brilliant beings who are not only trailblazing individually, but also teaming up to flip the script on what it means to truly heal and thrive. Cody Isabel and Chloe Deutscher. , co-host of the Decision Lab podcast. Cody brings a science, he's a cognitive neuroscientist turned entrepreneur using AI neurotech and IFS psychotherapy to heal trauma and unlock human potential, and specifically focus on innovative ways to heal complex PTSD and empower high achievers and trauma survivors to live resilient, purpose-driven lives.

 He is the founder and CEO of Mind, brain, body Lab, and the founder of my companion. Ultimately, he is working to empower billions to pursue lives of purpose, bridging wellness and technology in ways that elevate humanity. Chloe brings the soul.

She's a chemical engineer, turned wellness alchemist, empowering women to embody their full potential through somatic practices, biohacking and manifestation. Chloe [00:02:00] spent six years building and working in startups across neuroscience, psychedelics, and the supplement and wellness industries to together.

There are not only co-creating conversations about the future of mental health and wellness, they're walking the talk in their own powerful ways. if you've ever wondered what's possible, when you combine cutting edge tech with heart-centered intention, or how to practically heal trauma while reconnecting with your soul's purpose, this episode is for you. Let's dive in. Hi Cody. Hi, Chloe.

Cody Isabel: Hello.

Chloe Deutscher: Hello so much for the beautiful intro. I'm so excited to be here today.

karen loenser: . There's so much to dive in here, let's start at the beginning and talk about your dynamic and how you came together.

Cody Isabel: It's funny, we were just talking about, we had a one-on-one right before this, so we were just talking about how wild it is that a couple years ago we were just two creators in the nervous system space, like just starting out. And I was scrolling and. Chloe originally was Chloe Biohacks. Is that, what Yeah. So before Chloe goes [00:03:00] inward if you're an og, and I am, and I loved her supplement reviews which she's just now recently started getting back into and I was like, Hey, this is awesome. You talk a lot about the brain, let's jump on a call.

Robyn Miller: I love that. Yeah. So then you got on a call and how did it all come from there? 

Chloe Deutscher: Yeah, we had a few initial calls. It's, very common with influencers in similar space. Just chat and say, Hey, like, how can we collaborate together? And so we had a few calls and I think it took about a year. But I was going through some major changes in my life and Cody and I are talking and we just had this idea like, Hey, why don't we just pitch to brands instead of individuals?

But as a guy and girl duo, because we do have a lot of complimenting skills you get a two for one as a creator. We were like, let's just try this. And we tried it and it worked. And so we were like, this is awesome. What else can we do together? And so we just started building this ecosystem and creating the podcast.

And now we have a community for creators and we have the agency. And so there's so much [00:04:00] going on that we've been building together and it's been so much fun.

Robyn Miller: That's so cool. . And I can go from like a spiritual perspective. I feel like I wanna look at your astrological charts, all of that.

Chloe Deutscher: I'm like, please do. Yes,

Robyn Miller: another, we'll have to do that in another episode. but I wanna understand too, you both come from these scientific backgrounds.

So Cody, tell us like how you got into going from having this neuroscientific background to helping people with PTSD and then Chloe, you come from a chemical engineering and biology background. Let's talk about how you got to where you are now.

Cody Isabel: Yeah, for sure. For me, when I was in college, I got four concussions playing college basketball. Started studying brain inflammation and how, what's happening physiologically in your nervous system and in your body, how that can affect your mental, emotional, and physical health. And that's where like the seed For trauma of any kind. Started initially. And then I took that into, my first role out of school was an organizational psychology [00:05:00] company. We were actually helping like businesses with like half business, but the other half was mindset mental, really mental health. I love that side of that company.

So I worked there for a couple years and I was like, all right, I'm peaced outta here. I love the mental health, mental performance mindset side so much. I wanna dive further into there. And. That's really where it started. And then Mind Brain Body Lab, where I started posting content happened. I had. Just, raised like $800,000 for a startup that during the pandemic just failed and didn't work. Completely flopped a thousand bucks in my bank account. Panic attacks every night. I was just like what the fuck do I do? And I just went back to those roots the nervous system, the brain, the body and started creating content around those things. It just so happens that trauma and abusive relationships happened to be something that people were really struggling with at that time, and that took off for my brand. And so I just doubled down in that space for a long time, realized I was in abusive relationship myself, talk about imposter syndrome went through that trauma and, started to talk about that a little bit more. then [00:06:00] slowly, more recently, as Chloe mentioned, shifting really into anxious overachievers, content creators, creator, entrepreneurs, who I am, that have survived trauma, that are working through baggage and really helping them with their mental performance and their business.

And that's how I got here, and the neuroscience is at the center of all of it. I'm far more on our show, on the very much let's get to the science of this. Chloe is very open to the energetic, like spiritual, all the

Robyn Miller: conversations, Cody, that's come up. 

Cody Isabel: Right. 

Robyn Miller: Thing too I wanna bring up is the IFS psychotherapy

That means. Can you talk about that?

Cody Isabel: Yeah, so IFS stands for Internal Family Systems. There's two basic concepts. It's a type of trauma therapy, and there's two basic tenets of it, We're made of parts. So instead of saying, Robyn is anxious, IFS would say, A part of Robyn is anxious, A part of Robyn is an overachiever. And that instantly shifts you out of identifying as anxious, which your identity controls, your feeling, talks, actions, behaviors almost more than anything [00:07:00] other than your environment. And so those parts that's a huge piece of IFS and then the other half of IFS is. I don't do the healing. The self does. There is an inner. Leader, the seed of your consciousness, like the most you can be called the self in IFS that actually does the healing. And so it's not an external to internal process, it's an internal process. So you don't, in IFSI don't form an attachment in traditional therapy form somewhat of an attachment with a co-regulation attachment. With your coach or therapist. IFS is really much more about taking that attachment theory and put internal, you have a parent in you that never leaves you. if I get sick and I'm gone like. Our therapy could be done, but that internal leader never leaves you. It's always there. You always have access to the calm, connected, courageous, confident, clear energy that is you until you forgot who you really are. And so that's what IFS is really about, is uncovering the parts of you that are covering up that self-energy and that who you really are. It's an [00:08:00] amazing therapy for witnessing trauma as opposed to re-experiencing it. It integrates the body. And I could not be more of a prophet. I started using it with my clients and it is absolutely insane. Right after this in 30 minutes. I'm going to my FS therapist as well.

So love it. I talk about it all the time. People probably tired of it, but I will never stop.

karen loenser: Just at the highest level, can you just talk about how it's different from traditional therapy, just so people can understand the difference.

Cody Isabel: Yeah. So dive just a tiny bit deep, there's three types of parts that IFS really talks about, managers, firefighters, and exiles. So exiles are emotions that are really big emotions. So think of the most common Core wounds. Most people have abandonment, humiliation, rejection. Those are three of the three big ones. Injustice is another one of one of the top five core wounds. Those big things suck. Shame sucks. So we try to push them down and we don't just try. We do, we shove them down and we exile those parts because they're holding too big of emotions for us to deal with because when we're four, we [00:09:00] don't know what to do with it.

And so we shove it down, shoving it down is not enough. Because it's very creative and crafty, so it knows how to get outta the cages that we create. And the world is, I don't know if you've noticed a shit show, so it is not always the best environment for us to those exiles to stay locked away.

Things happen externally that. Push them out of their cages. And what we do is we create these protectors, these managers and firefighters. So we start to people please to keep shame away or rejection away. Hey, if I people please everyone around me, then Cody will never have to feel this again.

And I can keep shame or rejection locked away, and I'll get really good at that. So that, that stays away, locked away forever. maybe there's a firefighter that if rejection does get out or someone starts to reject me or I perceive that someone, the story I'm telling myself is that someone's rejecting me. Rage comes out, a firefighter comes out and douses the flame of that rejection, and I get super pissed and angry, or I dissociate or I start to binge watch Instagram or porn or drugs or sex or whatever it might be. And those are firefighters. So their job is to react and distract. This is [00:10:00] everyone's running around their hedge chopped off.

These are all little tiny children. And so the difference between if FS is A, the parts language, and B, being able to have a system and a process to go to those parts, the protectors first and say, Hey, did you know that Cody's actually not for anymore? Tell me your story. What was it like when that happened to Cody?

Help me understand what's going on for you. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do, if you didn't do this job? What would you rather do? Let's just pretend, let's pretend that the shame we could go handle the shame and release that burden. What would you do instead? And we can work with those parts, those managers and firefighters, those protectors to help them understand, Hey, I've got this.

Now the self is here. I'm invincible. The self is here. I can handle this. And then the thing that is the key differentiator. 'cause some parts work like some conceptions get there. But the key thing is trauma. These exiles that are locked away, a lot of therapies will go to those exiles and have you, oh, let's just talk about 'em.

Tell me more about that, and ask you all these questions about it. And then at the end of the session, you are re-experiencing that [00:11:00] trauma and you are worse off. And guess who absorbs all of that trauma? The exile you are trying to save. And it just gets worse and sinks deeper into you and becomes more defensive, and your system becomes more defensive around that part. has a way to go rescue those exiles and those traumatized parts in a loving, caring, kind way that allows them to unburden themselves and then fill themselves back up with self energy, confidence, clarity, persistence, playfulness, creativity. And it is beautiful because they don't stay stuck. So most therapies would go talk to that thing, look at the thing, oh hey, I see, I get it.

You're there. And then leave them. goes to it, witnesses and says, let's go. You don't have to stay here. I am the self. I'm all powerful. Do you wanna leave? What do you need to finish up here? Let's do that together. I can help you with that. Then let's go someplace else and I'll help you release this burden so that you can reintegrate back into this system and give me the gifts that I lost so long ago. that would be the biggest difference, I would say.

karen loenser: Of self empowerment in that.

Wow.

Robyn Miller: Thank you for explaining that. I actually did not know that. [00:12:00] So I feel like a lot of people just learned something and I'm gonna be

Cody Isabel: Yeah,

Robyn Miller: out for an if FS psychotherapist, that's for sure. 

Cody Isabel: Please do. an I Fs directory on the IFS Institute website.

Robyn Miller: Chloe, tell us about you. How'd you go from being a chemical engineer what you're doing now?

Chloe Deutscher: Yeah, it's been an incredible change in life, pivot. But if you look at my history, it always makes sense. So ground zero starting point for my life was losing my father at 11 years old. And from that point I learned so much about grief. And I started asking questions about life, about consciousness, and I experienced a lot of things that just didn't make sense in life from losing a parent.

I think if you lose a parent, it almost. Cracks open a door to the other side and things start happening as Robyn I.

Robyn Miller: I was 12. Yeah.

Chloe Deutscher: And so we have probably so many similarities to talk about. so that really sent me down this path first of all, of healing through grief. From that experience, I had a lot of anxiety. I also had a late stage A DHD [00:13:00] diagnosis, , on the other side, I was also an athlete. So I became very passionate about, okay, how do you heal through trauma? How do I overcome all these mental illnesses? But then how do I. and optimize and be the best version of myself.

So I had this really interesting path, which took me down the path to initially wanting to become a medical doctor because I wanted to save lives, I wanted to help people. And then I just realized that Western allopathic medicine wasn't the right route for me. So I thought maybe engineering. 'cause maybe I couldn't invent something that could change people's lives. Maybe a new drug, maybe some kind of medical device. And so I. I went down that path and I worked in big pharma, I worked in neuroscience, a lot of startups, and I just realized that it was more about the nervous system and changing beliefs that was actually really going to do it and make big changes in people's lives.

Not a pill, even though I do love supplements and I love medical devices, but it's usually more on the belief side and the nervous system side. And so I was actually working as an engineer for a [00:14:00] company that manufactured pharmaceutical grade psychedelics for use in clinical trials. And so I had already had this spiritual side of me, but then I started working with plant medicine and psychedelic medicine and it just. Blasted the door wide open. And I was like, oh my gosh. There's this whole other realm to explore. And so while I was in this role, I actually started posting about some of these experiences on social media posting about psychedelics, posting about supplements, using both a spiritual and scientific point of view. And it just started growing and my TikTok started growing. And then I started posting on Instagram and that started growing and I thought, oh, this is really interesting. Like I think I have something here. And so that's how I got started in all that. And I decided to leave, the engineering and startup space and really focus on how can I have an impact And way I can reach the most people is through social media.

Robyn Miller: Wow.

there's so much I to ask you, Chloe, in terms of, from your experiences with [00:15:00] plant medicine, let's say, were you able to explain any of that from a scientific perspective 

Chloe Deutscher: yeah, absolutely. So really quickly most psychedelics work on this receptor called the serotonin two A receptor. And so basically what they're doing is they're hitting this receptor and it triggers this cascade of events. But very often what happens is you get this calming down of the amygdala.

So that's your fight or flight center. And when we try to do talk therapy especially if you have trauma that Amy gets really active and goes. I don't wanna go there. I'm gonna signal panic in the body. And so when the AM amygdala calms down, we can then have conversations or we can process memories in a much easier way.

And so that's why, MDMA assisted therapy is so helpful. This is why, psilocybin assisted therapy is really helpful because you can actually access those traumatic memories. then there's a lot of other events that happen. We're still learning a lot about the brain and when I. a lot of this neuroscience around psychedelics, these are theories that are, being [00:16:00] tested every single day and there's more and more evidence, but it's still not a hundred percent certain. What's believed to happen is that. The brain also increases serotonin. You do feel more relaxed and also increases brain derived neurotrophic factor.

This is like fertilizer for the brain, so you'll have more connections happening in the brain. And the way I always describe psychedelics and how they work. so imagine your brain is like an office. You've got marketing, accounting, you've got the bosses and they're all very segregated. But doing psychedelics is like throwing a Christmas party and then all of a sudden all these areas start talking to each other and you have way more connections. And then once the psychedelics wear off imagine like gym for marketing meets. Mary from accounting, they're gonna remember that connection and that change perspective, and those connections are actually gonna be wired in. So that's basically what's happening in the brain. So there is a very scientific reasoning for why this is effective, but also [00:17:00] there's a very spiritual thing that's happening as well.

karen loenser: I've never heard somebody describe it like that before, and now it makes so much. More sense to me than it did before. How does the spirituality aspect then get wired in? I get the physical part, but then talk a little bit more about how the spiritual work.

Chloe Deutscher: I would say there's very common things that happen to many people when doing psychedelics or plant medicine, and I think one of the biggest ones is this realization that we are all connected. And I think that's the biggest thing is psychedelics remove the barrier from, what we believe as self to the rest of the world.

And a lot of people have these incredible life changing experiences where they go, oh wait, it's not just me, I'm not alone. We are all one, we are all connected and that can really change people's lives, feeling this connectedness. And then there's also, beautiful hormones that get released when you feel connected, right?

Like oxytocin, which is our love hormone. And yeah, it really can have this incredible ripple [00:18:00] effect everyone's experience is different. But a lot of people will do these plant medicines and say it is one of the most significant experiences of their life because they feel connected to love or they might not have believed in a higher power or something else, before doing psychedelics, but now it's shown them that maybe, hey, there's something else out there.

Robyn Miller: Have you also experienced just energetic work in general outside of that where you've had those types of feelings or experiences as well?

Chloe Deutscher: Yes, absolutely. So I've been an avid meditator. I've reached these. Unbelievable interconnected states of just pure love and bliss in creation and meditation. Sometimes in reiki work, I don't practice reiki, but I've received reiki breath work journeys. So I think psychedelics aren't the only way to get there.

It's just a helpful tool. There's so many tools.

Robyn Miller: Yeah. That's why I ask. And Cody, I'm interested if you've ever tried any of this as well. I feel like you've done Reiki, haven't you?

Cody Isabel: Yeah, I'm actually a Reiki Master. and what Chloe's [00:19:00] describing the spiritual side is what people consider self energy. That feeling of interconnectedness I is self-energy. I felt it myself through IFS work. And that feeling, whether it's meditation, the other things she's describing self-energy feels that way. And it is the interconnector of all of us. All of us have a self,

 So it's the Grand Interconnector. 

Robyn Miller: I love that both of you come from the scientific perspective, but have also experienced idea of self and that the energy of self,

karen loenser: Yeah. And the bridge between the two, right? So often people can very much focus on the science or the spirituality, and we just love the conversation that bridges the two. And the way you guys are approaching it is so scientific. Scientific that it gives, the doubters who may not feel like spirituality is their path.

An opportunity to see the benefits in so many ways on their body, on their mind, and that is the conduit that you bring to life. So thank you for explaining it that way.

Robyn Miller: Yeah. And I also find it really interesting that [00:20:00] you both come from being athletes and that you both had trauma from that and that was the catalyst. I know you're reaching so many people. That go through that journey of being an athlete and facing so much trauma. I would say. Is it both physically and then abusive? Potentially from I don't know, from training and all these other things? And from a mental capacity as well. Is that fair to say?

Chloe Deutscher: It's interesting. I have had a lot of conversations around this lately about my career as an athlete because it was something that truly defined who I was as a person, and it taught me so much about. about goal setting, about stepping into competence, my power, and that was so valuable. But there's also, I don't wanna say a dark side, but there was a another side of being an athlete where I didn't realize I had to work through some of these things.

And a lot of it was people pleasing, self-sacrifice and abandonment. Because at the end of the day, [00:21:00] you are working to please a coach and a team. And so I really struggle with people pleasing because especially as an athlete, there are real life consequences if you screw up, right? If you miss a game winning shot or you screw something up, like you're gonna be like, treated poorly by your coach, you team, you're gonna experience shame. And then something I've also had to really work through as an athlete is if you're not first, you're last.

So that mentality has definitely stuck with me and still sticks with me to this day. And and rewiring that actually throughout the entirety of our life, our worth does not change.

It's only a perception of our worth that does. And so that's something I've been really working on to implement and rewire in my body.

Cody Isabel: Similar for me. I, when I, my journey was injury and the hard part about a concussion was. You look fine. I could have a concussion right now, and you wouldn't even know there's no crutches, there's no cast, there's nothing. I just sit on the bench going from being a starter to benched and people are like, is he faking it?

I [00:22:00] think they're saying that it's a story I'm making up. And so this like critic gets built and this worried about what other peoples think the fopo fear of other people's opinion gets developed. And was really hard. And then how that affected my mental and emotional health was tough.

' it's part of your identity. Like up until that point basketball was, I was a basketball player so going through retirement was like a bit of an identity crisis as well. And that does a lot to you mentally and emotionally. Two, and just not getting to do what you love anymore and trying to figure out who you are while trying to figure that out.

While having that stripped from you it's really tough. And the critic is the other piece too. You gotta do more I think it's funny that Chloe and I are in an industry that has a scoreboard just like sports do.

Robyn Miller: true. Oh my

Cody Isabel: Surprise. Did you get the views?

Did you get the metrics? Did you get the retention? What was your watch time like? What were your fouls, what were your points? How many assists did you have? Is it that different? I think our nervous systems were conditioned to do what we're doing. And are across to bear. I get it.

I'm okay with that. But it is it [00:23:00] interesting.

Robyn Miller: that's a really good point. Thank you for sharing that. I am curious on what both of your takes are on intuition and how do you see that and science working together.

Cody Isabel: I can dive very deep in the science of it, so I'm happy to do that. And Chloe, I feel like you giving your thoughts would be great too.

Chloe Deutscher: Yeah I think intuition is foundational and something I work on with myself and with my clients. Is how to tap into that intuition, because very often that first thought that jumps in your mind that's the right choice. Or it's this subtle little nudges that lead us in the direction that we want to go. And so for me, intuition's been very foundational and important in my life. 

Robyn Miller: How would you explain it? would you say that's more spiritual or do you come at it from more of a scientific perspective?

Chloe Deutscher: I think it's both. I think intuition is these little nudges that come from your higher self or connectedness with something greater than yourself. But then we can also, in a way back this [00:24:00] up with science. There's neuroscience, there's a gut-brain axis. There's all these things that point to why intuition is actually a thing. So I think it's both. And I think when we have these discussions about spirituality versus science, I think we tend to separate them and go, this is spirituality and this is science. But I actually think it's both and they overlap. And so that's my perspective on intuition. I'll let Cody go all in on the science.

Robyn Miller: Yes.

karen loenser: I'm so curious to hear.

Cody Isabel: Yeah, intuition is a really interesting topic. To me it's neuroscience. It's not necessarily mystical can be jaded and take some of the magic way for some people. But it doesn't take the magic way for me. to me it's still amazing and an amazing thing that our, a superpower that we have and. The way that I look at it, it's really a rapid and efficient process that's rooted in just how our brains work, how we store our memories, how our neocortex stores memories the networked nature of our brain. And that is why I love intuition so much because a lot of people really think they get regionalized, oh, your amygdala does this, and [00:25:00] your prefrontal cortex does this, and your anterior cing cortex is that. When in reality our brains are an interconnected system, and that's what I really love about intuition. Like when you look at like the brain regions, you've got your right atmosphere that's like spotting patterns, as a wide angle lens. You've got the hippocampus that's pulling from all the different memories that you've formed about the things that are coming up. In relation to the current situation. You've got the orbital frontal cortex, which that starts to like intermix emotions, which that's an interesting piece because. Should you trust your gut always because emotions are mixed in your orbital cortex. You do intermix emotions. So it's something to think about. Your anterior insula is the bodily sensation that gut feeling with your vagus nerve and your interior nervous system. Your cardiac nucleus is like what allows you to have a really fast, decision, especially on a, in an area of like deep expertise. And this creates what we call intuition.

And something I've also found super interesting is differentiating between [00:26:00] instinct and insight. those are very different things and having words to explain them I find helps a lot. Like your instinct is a hardwired survival response. If you imagine going to touch a hot stove, you pull your hand away. an instinct that you wouldn't call that intuition. It's your amygdela and your brainstem. It's pre-conscious, it's unconscious things that are happening. Your intuition is more experience based, like snap judgements, which can develop over time. And it's had a recognition with memory and emotional cues, and it can create a really accurate gut feeling. In familiar domains, especially like a nurse can ah, something's going on there. Or even me when I'm working with clients, it's I feel like a part of you is speaking right now, not yourself and you start to develop an intuition from the thousands and thousands of data points that you've collected. Over your life. And that can be intuition and then insight. That aha moment comes after something called unconscious incubation. I'm sure you've heard people walk and people go in the shower and shower thoughts. That is not [00:27:00] surprising. Like when you stop thinking about the puzzle for a second and you step away, the solution comes. So it's a really interesting connection between something called your interior superior temporal drivers. Not to get too technical,

Robyn Miller: that one. Oh, just that,

Cody Isabel: I know I'm not trying to get too technical, but I just wanna help people understand there, there are ways to connect these things. 

karen loenser: Cody, is there a spiritual connection for you and all this, like I feel like you're explaining parts of my brain that I have no idea. You know how it all works together, obviously, but where does the spirituality come as you are describing intuition and all these other aspects of thought.

Cody Isabel: For me it's that self, like in if FS, there's a concept of being self-led versus being parts led When I advise people to not trust their gut, one of the number one ways that I or what I advise them on is that if intuition is coming from a place of fear and scarcity and anger or rage or things like that you're probably parts led and that might not be. The wisest decision you could make at that [00:28:00] moment. If you can unblend from that part and come from a place of curiosity and compassion and openness and courage and confidence and connectedness, that is a self-led feeling, which is more spiritual, if you will. And you're coming from a place of love instead of a place of parts instead of being parts l And so that's really where the spirituality comes for me. I look at the self as a semi spiritual construct, if you will. And that's how I think about intuition overall. 

Robyn Miller: And just speaking of that as a reiki master and working with energy in that way, how do you explain that from a scientific versus spiritual perspective.

Cody Isabel: So there, I don't dunno if you guys have heard of the Biofield. There's a really cool book about the biofield and all the research that's around it. the electrical charge that we put off. There's lot of misconceptions about this. It's not necessarily something where like ESP necessarily that's not been validated by science, but it is true.

We put off this electrical, impulse from our heart, from [00:29:00] our AV and essay nodes on our heart and our brains as well. And looking at that, those types of things is where reiki starts. From my perspective, Reiki starts to pull a little bit and then self energy. To me, Reiki is a nonverbal version of being able to extend self energy towards someone. Oftentimes when I'm working with someone, IFS, you talk to your parts. And so I ask people, Hey, would it be possible to send a shred of light or some self energy or open up a healing space for this part to step into and work and be able to feel the warmth and the connectedness and compassion from yourself? And people can genuinely do that internally. I. Reiki from my perspective, could be the externalized version of that. If I am sitting here thinking, and I do this when I work with people and I am trying to extend my self energy and open up a healing space for us and have a compassionate, curiosity driven conversation with all of us here and extending that energy. Towards y'all and yourself and your parts and that warm energy. I feel like that's where Reiki starts [00:30:00] to come in a little bit as well. That would be my 2 cents.

Robyn Miller: I love getting this other, your insight into this and your perspective. It's very interesting and I think it's bringing up also having that awareness that you're bringing up between the parts and the you

Cody Isabel: Yeah.

Robyn Miller: another way for people even to have the awareness is gonna probably help start heal them.

karen loenser: Yeah, and we've always said some people come from this from a very physical perspective. Then they get to the spiritual. And I love how you explain that. Can we talk about your podcast the Decision Lab podcast. Why is it called that? Why are decisions important?

And why is that so important, particularly for people's healing and growth? 

Cody Isabel: It really comes from like Chloe and I are. Science communicators. We have science backgrounds and degrees, and we also are in the influencer space. number of 14-year-old TikTok influencers that are selling health and mon health and wellness products today is absolutely freaking absurd. Companies send out scripts to say science backed things, and people don't even know what that means. Clinically researched or clinically backed [00:31:00] means nothing, but the average person doesn't know that. They don't know how to ask a question about a research study. They don't know what empirical evidence is.

They don't know what placebo controlled is. They don't know these buzz words, and they shouldn't have to. buy health and wellness products, and that is our perspective. And so clearing away, having, bringing on founders, having these conversations and just clearing away the bs Hey I totally get that.

You might not, you maybe don't have a half a million dollar clinical trial that you've done. That's totally cool, but making a claim about a pilot study you did with 11 people about the efficacy of your anxiety relief tool. In your marketing is misleading and messed up. There's a way to ethically science, communicate the benefits of your product and service. And so it's like I'm very passionate about helping people with that. Because I've gotten sent products to so many, like back here that are just like, what is this? How is this a million dollar company? This is crazy. And it's harming people. And I get fired up about it.

And that's our goal is to really become the place where people can come and where we have conversations about the [00:32:00] science behind things, talk to like experts about that kind of stuff, and help people make better decisions. by the very end where Chloe and I do our lab results sections like, yeah. This is approved, this needs more researcher. This is not lab decision, lab approved. And just help people start to form we do the hard work for them because we can ask those questions and we have access to the founders. If you wanna add anything, Chloe, I went on a raid there.

I got fired up.

Chloe Deutscher: Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the only thing that. I would add to that is, yeah, we're very passionate about helping people cut through the noise because there's just so much, and it's so overwhelming. You scroll through social media and see hundreds of tools and supplements of how to make my life better.

And so Cody and I really like to simplify that for people. and then ideally by listening to us, you have an understanding of, oh, these are the important questions and these are the things I should be thinking about when making purchasing decisions or making decisions about. Starting a company. And so ideally that listeners are able to listen to our podcast and learn about what should I or should I not buy, but [00:33:00] also what questions should I be asking and how should I be thinking about this and what does doing it the right way look like? 

Robyn Miller: are there any faves that have come out of your podcast of like products or rituals or something that you're using in your life every day? Just curious.

Cody Isabel: There's a little ritual that came from that just comes right to my top of mind. It's not necessarily a product, but we actually interviewed one of the founders of a product called Lucy Goosey, and it's this little pouch, it looks like a xin pouch if you've ever seen those, except it's ashwagandha ine rodeo rose. It's all these like things that bring your nervous system down instead of stimulating it. And it's called Lucy Goosey. And David Sorkin is one of the founders and. Like the wisest, what, how old was he? Like 25? Chloe? Or how he just graduated.

Chloe Deutscher: 21.

Cody Isabel: Barely. Like this dude took his first drink of alcohol yesterday, like it was nuts.

But he dropped this insight that I think about every freaking day probably. And his concept, he's a very spiritual human, and this concept of invoicing God or invoicing like the universe or whatever, and. [00:34:00] The concept is that if you're out and about and something's happening or you make a connection for someone or you can help somebody and there's nothing in it for you and there's no return on that investment necessarily, you can invoice God in those moments and it will come back to you and just take a moment and be like, you know what, this is a God moment.

I'm gonna invoice God for this one. It'll come back to me. I trust in that and boom. And do it. And I was just like, that's amazing. I use it all the time.

karen loenser: Wow, that's brilliant.

Cody Isabel: Yeah.

Robyn Miller: What about you, Chloe?

Chloe Deutscher: It's interesting because said something like, from the podcast yes, there's like cool products, but I think what we take away more is these perspectives from the founders. Like I constantly. Think about the podcast we had with JP Ko. And he has this nervous system, regulation device called Tru Vega. And, we had already always known about the power of the nervous system, but I. He just really articulated like to another whole nother realm and level about how powerful the nervous system is as far as, improving like memory, cognitive [00:35:00] behavior, but even regulating the nervous system at certain times of pregnancy and pre-pregnancy to have, better, birth outcomes and prevent things like autism and schizophrenia. And it was just really interesting and impactful, like just how powerful our vagus nerve is and the nervous system. It just, opened that door even wider for me.

Robyn Miller: I now need to listen to both of those episodes and we will definitely have those links in the show notes. That's so interesting.

karen loenser: wow.

Cody Isabel: was one of my favorite pods as well. I talk with him all the time. On Instagram. We're always sending each other stuff. He's a really cool dude. He got a a law degree at Duke, while also getting a master's in engineering at Duke at the same time, only one to ever do it.

$250 million of research went into the product before, went to market. dude is wild. He's Tony Stark

Robyn Miller: That totally sounds like it.

Cody Isabel: yeah, he's cool.

Robyn Miller: That's incredible. do you each believe that we're at this turning point of how we approach mental health and spiritual growth as a society? what do you think about [00:36:00] that?

Chloe Deutscher: Oh, absolutely.

and maybe I do live in a bubble because the people I'm surrounded by also believe the same thing. And I do think that you attract likes. You do surround yourself with people who believe the same thing, but absolutely. I think We're asking more questions than we ever have before, and maybe there's been a lot of life events that have forced us to not trust government, medical doctors, et cetera.

And this is putting all of us on a journey to seek truth. And then we're more connected than we ever have before. So we're able to, access basically all of the information on the planet we're able to access. Basically anybody that we want to. And so we have all this access to knowledge and information, and I think it's really reaching this bubbling up point where we are learning so much and expanding and spirituality and consciousness is very much so playing a large role in this.

Robyn Miller: What do you think Cody?

Cody Isabel: I would agree. Something I think about a lot is the. I read a quote in a book called Innovation Stack once [00:37:00] that's if poor people can't afford it, it's not innovative. And so I think a lot about that access is still one of the biggest barriers. Sure all of us in North America, can sit here on a podcast and talk about this stuff and be super high level and spiritual and the coming of the next renaissance of spiritual awakening and all this stuff. But there are some people who can't even. Afford a YouTube account, which is free because it can't afford a phone, which is not free. And so I think a lot about that and how to get to those types of people to increase access, I think at a very high level among these types of groups, these types of conversations.

And it's great to be in those rooms where people are starting to understand, oh, okay, trauma is affecting this stuff. 87% of people have unresolved trauma. They're not talking about we are to be able to measure more of these spiritual things, which doesn't take away from the magic. It just helps more people get there. So that's I do think absolutely we are, and I hope that from like the top down, we can push it down further and further to get to more and more people and truly innovate in a way that poor people and people who don't have [00:38:00] access can also get access to these insights and things like that.

And that is when I really feel like the turning point will be.

karen loenser: Mental health. Is at an epidemic level right now, People, there's not a person that you can meet that's not even thinking, that's thinking about it. What do you guys think? If you're just a newbie at all this and you're sitting listening to this, maybe you are interested more on the spiritual, not as familiar with The physical or mental connection, what do you say to people if they're on this journey? Like where do they start to get more answers on the physical side of things, about things that they can do, ways that they can, I don't know, help themselves? What is your biggest aha there?

Cody Isabel: I think I know what close is.

karen loenser: She's got a smile.

Chloe Deutscher: You go first. because I wanna articulate a little bit.

Cody Isabel: I think books and starting to get build awareness is a great place to start. No bad parts is IFS Basics book. It's a really good place to start to build some awareness and build some of these basic skills. And then starting to realize that your physical health affects your mental health. The number of people that come to me, I say, I'm like a fricking PE teacher. they come to me [00:39:00] and it's I'm so anxious. I was like, got it. How many hours you sleep last night? Oh, five. Got it. How many in the last month? Not very, That's probably about average. How are you eating? Are you socially connecting?

Do you have time for play? Do you pause and breathe and people understand how their physical body affects their mind and their brain because your body holds your brain and your brain holds your mind for this metaphor at least. And so being able to think about that, your sleep, your exercising, your nutrition, what is one habit that you could create? Habit of routine in those three areas that would support your mental health through physical health. And then once you're there, how can you start to do some of the mental work where you're starting to understand what are the limiting beliefs? What are patterns that consistently repeat my life? I have a decision register that like decisions and things that happen to me. I write down notes. Here's the decision I made. And then I go back, I was like, was this a good decision? Was this a bad decision? Why was it a good decision? Why was it a bad decision? Is this a pattern?

Oh, this is one of my patterns. How do I get ahead and start to just take a [00:40:00] second and look at these things, examine it. So awareness, building awareness of different tools that you don't have access to, connecting your physical health with your mental health. And then starting to pay attention to the patterns that and beliefs that are driving your life.

Robyn Miller: good, Chloe.

Chloe Deutscher: So I would say getting people out of fight or flight and getting into parasympathetic states I think is really incredibly important. And then also switching that belief from, I am not worthy to, I need to go out and do something and get something else and achieve something else to heal, to feel worthy. And switching that to everything I need is already inside me. I just need to remove the blockages to healing. What's blocking me from healing? What's blocking me from abundance? What's blocking me from confidence? Because all of those things are inherently inside of me. And so if you can switch that belief and then if you can regulate the nervous system and calm down, and like Cody said, the sleep, all the basics is really important for regulating the nervous system and the sad fact is today just with how our society is structured. we are just [00:41:00] constantly in high stress, fight or flight. And if your body thinks it's constantly running away from a tiger, it's not gonna be doing all of its functions properly, right? Like your body, if it needs to save its life, it doesn't care about digestion, it doesn't care about. Immunity. It doesn't care about healing, and so we just need to return back to the healing state and the body knows what to do. It knows how to fight off diseases. It knows how to fight off cancer. It knows how to digest. We just need to relax and calm down and allow it to do its thing.

Robyn Miller: everybody needs to hear that. That's the truth. And I think it's so interesting, again, where you both came from in terms of the high level of pressure you're both under as athletes

you were in constant fight or flight all the time. And I think to your point, I think most of us are, even if we're not athletes. However, it's very interesting that's where you started.

Cody Isabel: It's interesting too, something this connects back to the decision lab is the things that people say, like parasympathetic nervous system or sympathetic nervous system is a great example of cold plunging. [00:42:00] Cold plunging is a really common thing. Should everyone cold plunge? What do you think

Robyn Miller: that's

Cody Isabel: most people would say?

Yes, but in fact, if you are have a traumatized nervous system that stuck in fight or flight, it pushes you further up into a free state and it's terrible for your nervous system. And 

Robyn Miller: with you on that, but you're right. I think most people would say yes 'cause that's what they hear.

karen loenser: Yes.

Cody Isabel: And, oh, it's a hormetic effect. And it's okay, cool. Like I could say big words too. I'll who knows what it means? Nobody it's ridiculous. it drives me crazy and these. of everyone should, cold plunge is just not true. There are people it's terrible for. And those are the things we talk about on the nuance that we're able to get into the decision lab and the topics we'd like to cover. 'cause that's dangerous. Like those are dangerous things like a warm bath with some magnesium. Epsom salt would be way better for a highly stressed nervous system. 'cause that activates your para of the nervous system. So it's like, what are we doing?

Robyn Miller: That is such a good point. Wow. I have a question for Chloe. Given that we're both, little girls who lost their dad. I know one of [00:43:00] the things that's so healing for me in my adult life was actually talking to a medium that actually unlocked for me so much of this journey. And now I would say that I am not a professional spiritual medium, but I can actually connect on that level. Have you ever experienced that? Did you ever talk to a medium? I'm just so curious.

Chloe Deutscher: you know what? Actually I have not. So I've always wanted to but the opportunities never came up. So if you have somebody that you recommend

Robyn Miller: I'm feeling like that might be my own little or nudge from your dad. Honestly,

I'm supposed to say that. So Okay. Putting a pin on that and I will follow up on that 'cause. I think that would be really interesting. And then it would be really interesting to have a conversation about that from different perspectives. Because from my own experience, especially in the beginning, the fact that I can do it and we can talk about that, Cody on another level of what am I picking up? Because I'm able to bring in people that I don't know.

[00:44:00] So anyway that's for another conversation, but I will follow up with you on that.

Chloe Deutscher: Thank you.

Cody Isabel: That'd be a fun conversation.

Robyn Miller: oh, you think

Chloe Deutscher: Yes. I think we might have to have another podcast episode.

Robyn Miller: in my mind, so maybe we'll be blowing yours, 

Cody Isabel: i, would hate to be the downer in this and bringing up like cold reading and like the psychology

karen loenser: Yes.

Cody Isabel: mediums, tarot cards, like all that kind of stuff. But 

Robyn Miller: And we know there is all of that too. And I think what Karen and I bring to our experience is having talked to hundreds and hundreds of people who practice. And to us it's finding the ones that are super authentic in our opinion. obviously,

karen loenser: And how all this stuff can work together, right? It's really understanding the physicality, but also the spirituality. All of it all, and everybody's different. Everybody's got a different belief system. And as you were just saying, Cody, different things work for people in different ways depending on where they are.

Robyn Miller: And I'm sure it ties back somewhere to all of the other aspects that we talked about today, From within the [00:45:00] nervous system, within the brain and the body and everything. I think there's probably ties to all of it, and there is some magic. My

karen loenser: always.

Cody Isabel: I love it.

Robyn Miller: oh my goodness. I'm so grateful that we now know you and that now our audience knows you. I am in awe of the way that you both have followed these journeys. And what you're doing for the world is so important. I can't wait now to be listening to all of your different episodes because there's so much to learn and it's gonna help personally, I know, make better decisions.

karen loenser: Give people the resource that they can trust and. Truly authentic where you guys are both coming from are really just to give people true answers and that we all need more of in this day and age, so we appreciate that too.

Robyn Miller: Yeah,

Cody Isabel: Thank you so much.

Robyn Miller: thank you. You can find out more about Cody at mind brain body lab.com. You can find out more from Chloe at Chloe goes inward on Instagram. You can find out more about their podcast, the [00:46:00] Decision lab, at the decision lab.info, and you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast. And we're so excited for what's to come 'cause there's more conversations for sure.

Chloe Deutscher: absolutely. 

Cody Isabel: Thanks so much for having us.

Robyn Miller: Thank you.