Seeking Center: The Podcast

Life After Layoff: The Woo Woo + Not-So-Woo-Woo Ways to Find Your Purpose - Episode 121

• Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Ami Angelowicz • Season 2 • Episode 121

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You know we love diving deep into conversations about personal transformation. For some of us, personal transformation comes when we find ourselves at a crossroads, causing us to question who we are and what we believe. Whether it’s an ending of a relationship, the loss of a loved one, or a job layoff, these fork in the road moments can literally stop us in our tracks – leaving us questioning our purpose and how to move forward.

One new expert in the field of crossroads navigation is our friend and former Discovery Networks colleague, Ami Angelowicz. Ami is an award-winning writer, producer and digital visionary, who led content development and strategy for women’s lifestyle and entertainment brands, including Investigation Discovery, Travel Channel and discovery+. She recently launched her new company, Align Digital + Social, sold her first Hallmark Christmas movie and is the author of the Laid Off Life newsletter, which she calls “a place of respite for the weary workforce.”  Ami’s brilliant and funny commentary is intended to help readers "navigate career uncertainty to feel seen, supported and entertained, regardless of employment status.”

When we recently caught up with Ami, she had just published an update on her article called, “I Paid an Etsy Witch $13.69 to Cast A Job Spell For Me: And other Woo Woo Things I’m Doing to Land A Job.” So of course, we just knew we needed to have this conversation! Ami is here to share her crossroads journey and how she learned to surrender and approach this transition from the “inside out.”  She’ll be sharing what she did to rediscover her purpose and help reframe her layoff as a Spiritual Gift.

MORE FROM AMI ANGELOWICZ

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Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to Seeking Center, the podcast. Join us each week as we have the conversations and we, through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know now, we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life.

Karen: On a physical, mental, and spiritual level, we'll talk to the trailblazers who'll introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences that may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center.

Robyn: And for the best wellness and spiritual practitioners, experts, products, experiences, and inspo, visit theseekingcenter. com. Here on Seeking Center, we love diving deep into conversations about personal transformation. For many of us, personal transformation comes when we find ourselves at a crossroads, causing us to question who we are and what we believe.

Whether it's an ending of a [00:01:00] relationship, the loss of a loved one, or a job layoff, these fork in the road moments can literally stop us in our tracks. Leaving us questioning our purpose and how to move forward. One new expert in the field of crossroads navigation is our friend and former Discovery Network's colleague, Ami Angelowicz.

Ami is an award winning writer, producer, and digital visionary who led content development and strategy for women's lifestyle and entertainment brands, as well as the production of digital social video And podcast series for investigation, discovery, travel channel and discovery.

Plus, she recently launched her new company, Align Digital and Social, sold and is writing her first Hallmark Christmas movie and is the author of the laid off life newsletter, which she calls a place of respite for the wary workforce. Ami's brilliant and funny commentary is intended to help readers navigate career uncertainty to feel seen, supported, and entertained regardless of employment status.

When we recently caught up with Ami, she had just published an update on [00:02:00] her article called I paid an Etsy, which $13.69 cents to cast a job spell for me and other things I'm doing to land a job. So of course we just knew we needed to have this conversation.

Ami is here to share her crossroads journey and how she learned to surrender and approach this transition from the inside out. She'll be sharing what she did to discover her purpose and help reframe her layoff as a spiritual gift. There is so much wisdom to share.

Ami: Hi, Ami. that was such a nice intro. I'm like, can we just stop now? We'll just leave it at that. 

Karen: That's what's funny about our intros. Everybody feels that way. They don't realize the accomplishments they've actually made in their lives until they hear something like that.

Drink it in. 

Ami: Thank you. Thank you. My face is turning red listening to it. I was like, wow. 

Robyn: And there's so much more to go. You have so much more to share, and that's why we're so excited to have this conversation. let's start with. How you got here, what has been your professional journey, [00:03:00] and then what led up to this layoff?

Ami: Okay, how much time do we have? Do we have hours and hours? I'll give you the abridged version. So I was an actress and I went to NYU, I studied theater, I was working in the Broadway industry and I think it was like 2008, 2009, and I had this kind of moment of clarity.

I was pushing a large set piece down 11th Avenue in the dead of summer in New York City. So if you guys can imagine that, I'm sure you doing this . And I was like, what is my life? I don't wanna be pushing the set piece. I wanna be writing the scripts. And that was when my writing career started and I started writing for the web, which at that time was.

it was like a blog spot and, By the way, can I just 

Robyn: say, I have the chills with what you just said, because I so know that moment. Many of us, I think, have that moment where, You think you're doing one thing and then you're actually in it and you're like, what am I doing?

Ami: [00:04:00] Yeah. What am I doing? Yeah. 

Robyn: And you're like, no, I wanna do that. I wanna do the other 

Ami: thing. it's true. And 2009 rolled around and we had the economic crisis and it was, the perfect storm for me to be laid off. And I know this sounds controversial, but.

I was laid off and I was excited about it because I knew exactly what I wanted to do in that time. And by the end of my, unemployment period, I had started writing full time. I was working for a women's website that was launched by Turner Media called The Frisky. RIP, it's no longer, but it was an awesome place to work and I worked my way up From a staff writer to a senior editor there.

And then I was recruited by Discovery in 2014 to help them launch a website for their then fledgling network Investigation Discovery, which was just blowing up around the launch of the serial podcast and True Crime was having its moment. So I went over there and I helped launch that site. And then by the end of my first year there, I transitioned to a full time role where I was running all digital [00:05:00] content and social media.

For the network and then eventually for travel channel and Karen and I work together there. And while there, I think I went through maybe 10 reorgs in eight years and I think I had 10 different bosses. Karen and I had the same boss for, I think a week, maybe. Even though we did totally different things.

Yeah, a lot of change, a lot of chaos. And the pandemic rolled around and I knew I was ready to move on, but I didn't know what my next thing was going to be. And I was suffering from something I've now found out is called misalignment burnout. I know there's all these different kinds of burnouts that we've heard about, especially in the last.

 Three or four years, but misalignment burnout was one that, when I found out what it meant, I was like, oh, that's what was going on with me. It's when the environment or activities that you're engaging in, i. e. work are not in alignment with your core beliefs and values.

 Yeah. [00:06:00] I think you just named 

Karen: something that I haven't been able to identify either, Ami. 

Ami: therapy for years and years trying to figure out what's wrong here and what do I want to do next? then the pandemic hit and my partner works in production and all production stopped and, I was grateful to have my job and kind of keep going, needed to keep going for a while longer.

And then 2023 rolled around and I was laid off. So again, a controversial thing to say, but I was relieved and excited when I was laid off, which I know is not everybody's reaction. But I was very much ready to go, but then I was dropped in the middle of this Okay, I have no idea where I'm headed now.

which is not the kind of person I am I like to know exactly where I am and where I'm going what I'm doing. I went right into that kind of the fight or flight mode of got to get another job, got to get another job, need this financial security. And I was doing the, like throwing spaghetti at the wall method of applying for jobs, which is when you just Oh, dog trainer, I can do that.

It doesn't even matter if you've ever [00:07:00] done it before. You're just applying for everything and all the rejection notices were coming. And then I had my second moment of clarity, which was like, wait a minute. I don't want another nine to five job right now. I had this low point when I had an interview and the hiring manager wrote me back and said it was a position that was way junior to what I had been doing.

And you just don't have enough B2B experience. And I was like, Okay, at first I felt, sorry for myself and was like, I'll never get , I did feel very low. I'm not I'm making light of it now, but I felt really lost. and I was like, Wait a minute, I don't want that job anyway. And I don't know if I want another nine to five. And then I was kicked off on what I feel like is my path. I launched my newsletter called Laid It Off Life and it was really just a forum for me to be able to process. What was going on with me, and

I wanted to document an authentic journey of what this process was going to be for me because I truly did not know. 

Karen: And one of the things that you shared with us too, Ami, was that you really started to look at yourself from the [00:08:00] inside out versus the outside in, can you share a little about that?

Yes. 

Ami: Thank you for looping me back around to that point. Basically, the throwing spaghetti at the wall method is a very outside in method, of I got to get another job. I've got to get that paycheck coming in.

What am I going to do? And when I really shifted the paradigm to okay, I'm running my own agenda. I'm not running other people's agendas anymore. It took the pressure off and it gave me the chance to be like there's a lot of work I need to do to have it revealed to me, what is next for me, and I really needed to step back and take that time, and I think so many people, I know myself included, when they do get laid off, they want to quickly get to the next thing.

They want to land in the next place. Without really doing the inner work that's required to get clarity on what their priorities are and what is really going to be a good fit for them. People want to skip over that step. And I have a yoga teacher who always says, slow is the [00:09:00] way to go, fast and you bypass.

Robyn: Ooh, that's good. 

Ami: Yeah. So I think about that when I think about it, yes, at first my instinct was to go fast and bypass, but I realized what I really needed to do was slow as a way to go. 

Robyn: And I think going to even what you've named your company, Align Digital and Social, and going to what you talked about that misalignment burnout, it's all about coming back into alignment And from that fight or flight of, I need to get another job, I think , most of us are fueled by fear and so it's that fear of, but don't I need that paycheck?

Is that the only way I get a paycheck? Is that the only way I can have income coming in? And so how did you start, when talking about working on that inner work and that inside out, how did you start to cope with that? And let that kind of subside somewhat so that you could get to that core of who you are and then match that with what you want to do.

Ami: Yes. I am still working through it. It's 

Robyn: very [00:10:00] hard, 

Ami: by the way never ending. I have not reached the destination with that yet. But I am working on it. I will say this. Compounding this, like, all of my fears about not having financial security were like what if cause my partner, he's a freelance producer, so I was like, what if we're both out of work at the same time, what if we need to get a new apartment, what if we, I started just thinking about all of these things, all of the things I was worried about.

Every, we were out of work at the same time. We had to unexpectedly move out of our apartments on New Year's weekend. Oh, wow. I have to chill. I have to chill. I know. Wow. I know. Yeah, all these things I spent time so much time ruminating about and being like, but I won't have health insurance.

I won't, just all these things, right? They all happened. And they all happened at the same time. And then I had this moment where I was like, okay, there's nothing I can do here except surrender to this. So the worst has happened now. The worst in my imagination, by [00:11:00] the way.

Robyn: Don't you think so? That has to do with, I know you've listened to our podcast before and we love it. thank you. And we share a lot of the same ways of thinking. And to me when you're talking about how you kept thinking about that. It's like what you focus on, right? What you resist persists, right?

So it's like that whole idea 

Karen: of that expression of what you focus on grows. yes. It's like some people call it the law of attraction, but some of is about really inviting that into your experience when you have that. And you don't think you are, but you're thinking about it all the time.

All the time. Yeah. 

Ami: All the time. And I was like, okay, now that this has happened, I felt more free It sounds counterintuitive, but I felt more free not to be scared of it anymore. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yes. Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm still here. . I did have enough money to get another apartment, they did accept our application.

we did move I did make it through this. So when I started my newsletter and I started my business, I started having freelance jobs come in. I started having clients for my business and [00:12:00] it started and it was like, how can I expect myself?

to just be starting and to be at the level that I was at as an executive. I can't, So I had to make over my expectations and be like, okay, you know what? Surrendering to time, this is going to be a slow build, and I'm going to make it fast. Through this and so far I have been knock on wood I'm going week to week month to month and some months are excellent and some months have been harder but I'm going and I've taken the pressure off of myself of Knowing where I'm gonna be a year from now or five years from now and I'm just trying to live in the moment of this which is not something I have been very good at in my life and people love to ask what's your plan for your business?

What are you, this, why are you doing this? And why don't you try this? And I just have to drown out all that noise and be like, I don't know, and that's okay. No, my website's not perfect. No, my business plan is not perfect. I'm letting it happen. And I have to just sit back and do that.

Getting back to your question about how I got over it. So [00:13:00] had a lot of horrible things happen all at once. forced to be like, Oh, look, you're still here. You're still alive. But there were a lot of other things that I was doing too, to help me cope with that fear and anxiety, which nobody tells you about this when you get laid off.

And this was the thing that was the most surprising to me was the rollercoaster of emotions that I was going through. a roller coaster of emotions. I didn't expect it because I wanted to move on. So I was like, oh, I should be nothing but happy, but I really went through all of them. 

Robyn: Your identity that you had because you have been at positions for so long and you were this last role for such a long time.

You built something very successful. And so even though you knew it was time to move on, you have to mourn what that was. 

Karen: Yes. 

Robyn: And there's so much of that, as we were talking about inner work 

Karen: yeah, I'm going through it right now myself, which there's that relief that you feel in some senses that.

That misaligned job maybe that you had is actually behind you but then there's the unforeseen, the new frontier of how to navigate moving forward, and really [00:14:00] unlearning a lot of the things As your daily corporate life, Of like living a framework that was, designated by other people.

Now it's really, you're the master of your own destiny. And that can be a really scary thing for people and terrifying. It's 

Ami: terrifying. Let me tell you, I call the process that I have been going through at deprogramming. And it's like leaving a cult or something, I feel like I've been deprogramming and I'm not even fully deprogrammed yet.

It's been over a year, , I'm just starting to wake up in the morning and not feel like I have to pop out of bed right now or not have that heart racing feeling of what meeting am I supposed to be in? Where am I supposed to be or how many emails do I have?

What problems are there this morning? I'm just starting to decompress from that and, just giving myself permission to have my schedule be whatever I want it to be, because I'm, , a hard driving person, so I sit at my desk from 9 to 5 every day, and I'm, like that's not my new reality now.

My new [00:15:00] reality is different. And part of my job now is to, like I said, deprogram and to work on getting out of fight or flight mode, to work on my nervous system, to get myself in a calm and creative place, I would say. 

Karen: it's almost going into withdrawal, isn't it? I feel like workaholism, which is something that many of us Are experiencing in our daily life because of the demands of our jobs, right?

Really? I mean for many of us there We feel like we didn't have a choice but being there at our desks from nine to five and always available and so now it's like how do I Detox from that. How do I literally reprogram my brain to know oh my gosh I can get up from this chair and Go for a walk Crazy when you say it out loud, but I think even just now, Ami, I feel like thank God there's somebody else who understands.

I feel like our audience is going to say, gosh that's me too. And whether or not you're in a full time job in a corporation or not what's wrong with having that kind of expectation of what your daily life can be. 

Robyn: and for me, I was laid [00:16:00] off and like you wanted to be at the time, cause I was just ready to do something different.

And so I've been at this for quite some time and obviously, We have created Seeking Center and there's a lot more to come and it's still, even as you said, it took time, but as I've been saying to Karen, we don't need to be at our computers all day. I'm like, Karen, you need to think about your day differently because this is like newer to her in terms of not having that expectation of needing to be on all day on call all the time.

It's weird and wild. Yeah. And you go outside and you're like, wait, what are all these people walking around? I 

Ami: to go somewhere at lunch and see people out just doing stuff. And I was like, who are these people? What are their jobs? what are they doing here at this coffee shop, just hanging out?

 Not that I'm one of the people at the coffee shop, but now I think of My personal and self work as like a part time job. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm dedicating a part [00:17:00] time job schedule, maybe not fully part time, part time ish to just me. And that's like working out, reading. The things that make me feel creative, that make me feel good.

 Listening to podcasts just doing my morning or my afternoon, how I want to do it, taking myself out to lunch, I've trying to think of it instead of with guilt. Like for a while it was like, I should be doing more to grow my business.

I should be doing more to, do this. And I was like, no, this is your job. This is part of your job right now. So I gave myself a job of you're going to do this work on yourself during this time. And I think a lot of people want to skip over that.

And I just want to note that I do understand that. I'm in a place of privilege to be able to have that time without, being worried about being able to pay my bills or eat. And that is a real concern for many people. I was lucky to have gotten severance, to have, saved up money, so I just want to call that out.

There are people who and I've been one of them before, who gets laid off and [00:18:00] has to start working again tomorrow in order to So it's not about the not working. It's about doing the self inquiry, in whatever way you can. 

Karen: priority for yourself and putting it in 

Ami: a priority.

Yeah. And even, people have different priorities. I think if someone gets laid off and they have to go into another job and they get another job. Great, but make sure you're still doing the work of who am I? What is my purpose? What lights me up? What excites me? People can have bridge jobs They can have side hustles that they want to become full time.

that's all great So no judgment for anyone who jumps right back into working it's just more of figuring out doing the work to figure out who am I now? And what do I want really taking? 

Robyn: Yeah because I think most of the time in these positions that we've had, there is so little other time or at least that's how we set ourselves up at the time because you're just thinking about that job.

And in some ways, I know this is going to sound weird, but it sounds almost [00:19:00] like it is actually easier because life is a little more black and white. It's I'm all of this. And then yeah, I have this small window for either myself and, or my family. And it's from these hours to these hours, that's what I'm doing.

And yes, you have to be, somewhat available when you're called to help, wherever it is, but you're not constantly thinking about. What is actually bringing me joy. You just sit in, some misery and you think that's normal, 

Karen: No, a 

Ami: lot of misery for me.

Karen: I think it's so important to, for people listening to and you're absolutely right. Many have to jump right into the next possible job to feed their families. There's no doubt. But if there is that opportunity to just take a moment and think about Is this the right job? To what you were saying about moving . The set furniture, right? Yeah, we might get stuck in that road and think that's the only experience that I have. So therefore I have to continue down that path. But even if there's a moment in that juncture to make just even a slightly different pivot, to put you on that road to what you really love [00:20:00] and enjoy, because what you've been saying is now that you are doing the thing that you love.

The work is coming. you're actually attracting that in there because you're in that place of not desperation, You're inspired more in alignment with who you are. 

Ami: You said the word desperation, and that is not a powerful place to make a decision from about anything in your life.

Especially your job, where you're going to spend, 60, 70 hours of your life. So if you do have the privilege and opportunity to take the time, take it.

 If you have time to do this step of self inquiry, do it.

I can't say that enough because what you were saying about inspiration, and I was thinking about this because I was just watching the bear this week, which is my favorite show. And it's a Chicago show. Me too. Oh, I just cry through every episode. It's crazy, but I won't give any spoilers, but I just thought while I was watching this.

Latest season. It's just like you have to work with joy, , maybe everybody doesn't feel that way, but I have to do [00:21:00] things with joy. If I'm not doing them with joy, why am I even doing them? 

Robyn: Exactly. I couldn't agree more so I just got back from a trip last night. And one of the things that I was talking about with Karen was joy. 

Ami: And 

Robyn: how you have to live with joy. Isn't that the point? I think joy and love are the two things we need in our lives. And when I talk about love, even self love, not just love from others and giving love to others.

Love for yourself and then joy. they are key and sounds probably to some people listening or watching right now. They may be like, yeah, I'd like to experience joy too. But you can 

Ami: you can you have to find it though. 

Robyn: You do 

Ami: have to seek it joy doesn't always come naturally to me I have , and i'm a very practical person And i'm a hard working person and i'm like give me a task and i'm gonna Run at it head first at the wall, but I said to myself, you have to work with joy.

Like it doesn't mean that every task you do, you have to love. It means you have to work from a place of [00:22:00] joy. And that's, what I was thinking about while I was watching the bear. There's lots of other takeaways, from the season, but that was one thing I was thinking. 

Karen: What you were saying to Ami about coming back to being more present in the moment of where you are.

Joy is not a destination. It's journey. And it can be so simple, 

 

Karen: And now that you have time to really be in that present state, you can appreciate them. And like you said, schedule them into your day to day. 

Ami: And, I'm just getting started. This is just the beginning of joy for me. I think there's a lot more to come. So I'm just like dipping a toe in the joy waters right now.

Robyn: And speaking of joy, and releasing fear. What are some of the other ways that have helped you get to this place of joy? 

Ami: So many things. therapy, I'm a big proponent of therapy. Everyone should do it. And I really wish that in 2024, there would be no stigma about going to therapy.

 Everyone should go. So that's my plug for therapy. [00:23:00] Also. I need a lot of movement. I've been practicing yoga since I was 17 years old regularly since then. So I do yoga and then in 2020, I started doing a movement modality called the class. I don't know if you guys have heard of it, but it's awesome And you can get an online membership and stream the classes, which I do I've actually never gone in person even though there's a studio here in new york But it's about moving energy, releasing energy, stress, tension, and trauma through movement and sound and it's also a good workout.

 It's really helped me, I'm not holding. I'm really trying to , let things flow, let things through. I also was doing some manifestation work and neural reprogramming.

 It's called to be magnetic and it's about moving through the blocks, that you have in your subconscious And pushing those through so you can Manifest more easily. I don't know where I stand on the whole manifestation thing.

Ami: However, what was really helpful about it for me was being able to do what they called in that modality [00:24:00] deep imaginings, which are basically , really long guided meditations, in which come in contact with your inner child and your shadow 

so I enjoyed that part of it which kind of led me to a daily practice of doing guided meditation. I've tried a lot of different types of meditation I've really been liking guided meditation because it keeps my brain focused from wandering those are a few of the things a lot of journaling. And then my newsletter which was really.

A way for me to process , I'm a writer and I write to figure out how I feel about things so I'm doing a lot of writing 

and I was even recording some audio diaries of how I was feeling some like raw moments. I was just like, I want to document this process. So that's mostly what I've been doing to try to peel, the layers back. 

Karen: And I love how you're brave enough to a put that out there, but also thinking about how it can help other people along the way and really creating that community of others.

You've made it into [00:25:00] really like a fun club versus yeah, no truthfully. The news, I love it. It's not just about the job search. It's about, fun and interesting things that you're finding along the way so that's incredible that you're actually doing all of that work, not only for yourself, but that you're giving it to other people to learn from too. 

Ami: I wanted to start my newsletter in the first place was because I felt like No one's talking about this experience in a real and authentic way.

 I'm just getting hit with so much advice about, Oh, this is what you need to do. And you need to update your LinkedIn profile and you need to have an elevator pitch for who you are. And I was like, but I don't know who I am. people being like, Oh what do you want to do now?

Like I had all these networking meetings and people like, what are you trying to do next? I don't know. And I was like, is it wrong that I don't know? No, it's not wrong. It's not wrong. And all these feelings I'm feeling, nobody talks about this. So I really felt like with my newsletter, I wanted to provide a raw and authentic experience of my [00:26:00] layoff.

And I know that other people have totally different kinds of experiences and everyone approaches it differently and reacts to it differently, but. Some of the feelings I think are universal, and all I wanted to do was be like, let's talk about this honestly, and there's all these people on LinkedIn, but where are people connecting who, are laid off, and especially in the media and the tech world right now?

Things are bad. Things are very difficult, and people are, rightfully scared. There's a lot of fear. I felt the fear too and sometimes if I let myself go into it, I'm still in the fear, but I'm trying to work through it and trying to drown out some of that noise.

So I wanted my newsletter to be a place where people could to hear an honest accounting or have honest conversations about, What happens when you get laid off, especially at a, an apex of your career because it's much different being laid off when you're in your late twenties, than it is which I was last time to [00:27:00] being laid off when you achieved what people think of as the height of, What a career is going to be.

And then where do you go from there? How do you start 

Robyn: to look at it as an invitation, rather than, a sentence. 

. I wanted to ask about how you've used tarot or astrology.

During this time and how did it help guide you in any way? 

Ami: I've used it a lot. I've had, two tarot readings and , two astrological chart readings and they've been very helpful to me. because it reaffirms what I need to be focusing on, what I need to be working on personally.

And I had a reading recently with Michelle Nolan. Yeah, which was so awesome. It was like three hours long. It was so intense, She basically said you're right in the middle. The center of my reading was the tower card, which is for people who don't know tarot, the tower is like everything around you is crumbling to the ground.

 She's this is so [00:28:00] interesting because she's I'm reading you like mid transition, you're halfway there, like you're past the hardest part, but you're not all the way there yet. So that was very helpful to just think about. She talked a lot about how right now I'm in a real queen of swords energy of Closing everything out this is what I'm doing, tunnel vision, and I'm moving into a queen and eventually king of wands energy, which is not just the focusing and closing everything out onto my vision, but, Really bringing that vision to a much bigger stage and, making that magic and inspiration happen.

Very helpful. the astrological chart reading was also awesome because, I'm in my Uranus opposition. It's like , your midlife crisis. So I think I'm moving out of that, by this year, next year. And so that was very helpful to think about that and how this is a particular time period I'm going through , 

Robyn: Each one validates each other and also validates, where you are in your life. Yes. 

Ami: [00:29:00] Yes. And I get those readings now for, All of my friends and for I got one for my brother, I got one for my partner, Josh, and neither of them are into tarot or astrology, but they both loved it, they both were like, oh, it makes so much sense, and it's done in a really practical way, so it's not about predictive futures.

It's about where are you right now? What's going on around you? What challenges are you facing and where are you headed? So I'm a very practical person and I love woo things. I think I've tried just about everything except I want to try Akashic records reading.

I heard your latest and yeah Anyways, I haven't done that But I've done a lot of things and I will do almost anything that helps me gain insight and knowledge unless it's Cult like . We're with you. . Yeah. So I like to do really practical, grounded things in an individual space, not in a cult like way, 

Karen: Ami, I can't tell you that for me, as I go through this transition 

. There is that [00:30:00] validity in those readings that really can help. not only ground you and give credence to what's happening in that moment, but also gives you that hopeful oh, this is the potentiality of what's in front of me. 

 . And another thing to is energetically.

Those readings are really helpful too, because you're carrying a lot of the trauma. Regardless if you wanted to leave or not, it is a traumatic experience to change jobs or to get laid off. And so trying to release some of that energy is really important too.

So this is the time to dive deep . I know it really 

Ami: And there is so much I feel like I am working through so much. work and professional trauma I had never dealt with before, And so I'm ready to really leave that all behind.

Karen: I want to ask about, looking at your layoff as a spiritual gift, because that might sound like a leap of faith some people but tell us from your perspective, why you feel that way and what it taught you. 

Ami: Yeah I'm still learning things from it I'm , very much in the process, like I said, but I think of it as a huge gift because I [00:31:00] couldn't keep going the way I was going because of the misalignment burnout.

 It was having an effect on my health. For a long time, I came away from that job with some legitimate medical issues. And, really needed this time to heal, and I don't know if I would have had the courage to just leave. Because, I probably would have eventually, but, the golden handcuffs, This thing is real and you have this perceived feeling at a job like, Oh, with this paycheck and this position, I'm safe here.

But I really had to realize that there is no safety, it's an illusion. So that was something that I consider a gift learning that lesson. But the gift is just the time to get to know myself better, and the chance to roll the dice on me.

On the things that I love and that I want to do Okay, yeah, you want to amp up your writing career at a moment when the industry is at rock bottom? Okay. Sounds like a horrible idea, but it's actually going well for me.

So I had to have the layoff happen in order for [00:32:00] me to have a bunch of the opportunities that I'm getting now that truly feel exciting to me. So that's the gift. And I'm sure there are more gifts to come, but the gift is being able to feel and experience joy.

 I used to have this conversation with my therapist a lot, and I'd be like, nobody likes their job. Everyone hates their job. And she said, that's not true. And I said, I don't believe it. I was like, I know two people job, and. Now, I'm a person who's okay, you know what?

don't have a job right now, but I love the work that I'm doing And able to bring joy to it and feel joy from it. And I didn't even think that was possible 

Robyn: Isn't it interesting when we talk about work and job and those words?

I feel like with work is a reflection of you or your job is more of the reflection of who you're doing it for.

 And if we can stay true to the work and our relationship to what we're giving in that experience versus the golden handcuffs, like you said, and really figure out a way to stay immersed in that. [00:33:00] That's where the real joy can come from, not in the judgment of the boss.

Or the level role that you have. 

I would argue shouldn't our job to be a good human or be a good Yeah, and it's like really be happy like what is our job? But like bringing joy to your work in whatever way that is, so if you are a writer or if you're a healing practitioner It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, ? It's so interesting when you just talked about it, I haven't really thought about it that way. 

Ami: And also I've been writing about Renavigating my GPS for success.

 And that was something Michelle Nolan and I talked a lot about in our reading was just like, you have faulty ideas about what it means to be successful. So I'm deprogramming that. And I've also just wrote today about unpigeonholing.

Yourself. 

Robyn: Let's talk about that because I think, especially when you are in this place of transition and you're in this place of transition and you want to try something in quotes different.

And yet [00:34:00] everyone around you is saying you can't do that because you don't have that experience. And yet in your heart, you want to try something different. So why don't you define what that means to you and how do you start that path?

Ami: It's a wonderful question. I wrote about this in my newsletter had caught up with an old friend. Colleague who's still at my former company and they have been following the laid off life newsletter and they were like, I didn't even know you wrote, And they were giving me a compliment and I took it as a compliment, but it hurt me because I was like, how can I let my essence of who I am be hidden for so long. And the longer you are at a job the more synonymous you become with your responsibilities and your job title.

 and people start to know you as this one thing. And, I said I'm a pigeon of many talents. I don't want to be put in a hole. And I don't want to have a neat LinkedIn headline or a elevator pitch that tells you exactly who I am and what I do.

So yes I write. [00:35:00] I produce. I also, do lots of other, I work with clients. I do content strategy. I do content creation. I do social media strategy. I do a lot of different things. And if they don't all make sense to someone else I'm sorry, I am forging a new path here.

And , I might not have a job title. That exists. I might not have a profession that exists and I'm creating it. I want to trailblaze it, whatever it is. And I feel like people get so uncomfortable with trying to see a person that they know in a certain way in a different way.

So how do you get out of this box of you are this, you're a digital content executive, you are , whatever it is and say no, I'm not accepting your definition of who I am and how you see me. Certain things I've been doing other than trying to block out that noise is, The number one way to reshape the narrative of yourself is through your own storytelling, and storytelling can be written, it can be social [00:36:00] media, it can be any way that you use your voice, and you can show people this is who I am, and this is what I have to say, and this is what I do retrain them to think about you in a different way by taking control of your own narrative I think that's one major thing another thing is networking in a different way, instead of, maybe you're going outside of your profession and networking with people that you think are interesting or doing something interesting, learning about them doing meetups, or if you are in your own industry, going to conferences and stuff, but Speaking about who you are and what you do the way that you want to speak about it. . And then also, I'm always the fan of Classes, courses, certifications, whatever it is.

 It could be volunteering. It could be, anything that you can do to slightly change the perception of the way people see you and what you're capable of.

That's the thing. I think people. People see you as one thing, and then they think you're only capable of one thing, and you have to say no, that's why , people were shocked. I said, I sold a Hallmark Christmas movie, and people were like, what? 

Robyn: How 

Ami: did that come to be? I did pay an [00:37:00] Etsy witch 13. 69 to cast a dream job spell for me. Yes, please. tell us about that. I just could not believe. I will. Tell you the abridged version. But since 2020 I started feeling like I wanted to write a Christmas movie.

I don't know why I'm Jewish, like I don't celebrate but I love Christmas movies and my nickname at the holidays is Elfowitz. Because I like to give presents. I just I like the Christmas totally. Maybe it's because I never had it growing up or whatever, but I like to listen to Christmas music. I like to be Elfawitz all those things. And in 2020, I was like, I want to write a Christmas movie. So I have a writing partner that I work with, and I was like, do you want to write a Christmas movie with me? 

So we had pitched some ideas through a producer that we were working with and we never heard back on any of those ideas. And then 2023, when I got laid off One of my former colleagues who had also gotten laid off landed at Walmart and I met up with her to catch up.

[00:38:00] And then during the meeting, I was like, can I pitch you? Because she is working in production development. She's sure, Then the writer's strike happened, so had to wait an additional five months or whatever it was. And during that time my writing partner and I dusted off our old pitches and we really flushed them out based on what they were looking for now.

 And then we went through a long process once the writer's strike was over of, pitching, and rewriting, and there was an idea that they were interested in the whole time, and finally, in February of this year, we got the deal for the movie I was like, that's my big dream, I want to make this thing happened, it's not my biggest dream.

It's a big dream. And people were like, what, how you don't do that, and I was like do you know what I do? I've been. dedicated to my writing, for a long time now. And I've been in a writer's group for 12 years.

So I have a group of women we've been meeting regularly for 12 years. I have a book project that I've been working on. I have things that I've always done. That were separate from my work and what's nice [00:39:00] now is that I get to have that integrated, that my job or my work, it's not separate from who I am and what I'm doing every day.

And I don't want there to be any parts of me or any talents that I have that nobody knows about anymore. Ami, I didn't know you that! I know, see? I didn't! Karen and I worked together for Six years or something? And you didn't know that about me because what opportunity do I have to Showcase that skill regularly, even though I came in there and I started at the company by launching and writing regularly people who came in after that they didn't know that's how I started at the company.

Karen: it's such a good example of how you bring your passion into your day to day, however it fits in, people at Discovery knew me that I love my crystals and they knew I was woo. And I just. Made that part of who I was. And then, obviously doing the thing with Robyn we started to do the podcast because that was a passion thing for me and having, so my point is anything that is your passion that you are [00:40:00] interested in?

If you can find a way to just at least give it some life, even if you have to do your day to day paycheck job. 

To grow. You 

Ami: give it your life. And a lot of the things that I do as jobs now, I consider work they're not all revenue generating things. Some of the things I do are revenue generating and some of them I'm very dedicated to my newsletter and it does generate some revenue, but that's not the purpose of it per se.

That's one of my jobs. 

Robyn: I love that you're putting it that way that is really important job and or work does not always money in the way that really does. To your point of on pitching holing I know for me, what I'm doing now, nobody five years ago when I left my job with Oprah would have thought that I'd be doing this, if I was just to stay media executive , I wouldn't necessarily be having these kinds of conversations or wanting to dive into, all the different topics that we talk about on a daily basis.

Ami: And look at all the amazing things that you're doing. There was more to be done. There [00:41:00] definitely 

Robyn: was. And I think it's so important for people. listening to know you don't have to do what everyone thinks. 

 It goes to that idea of when you're doing something that's never been done before, you're doing something that's never been done before.

And so people don't know how to react to it. They don't know. And you still have to just keep going. And I love how you say it may not be defined by one line. 

Ami: How are you branding yourself? And I'm like, I'm branding myself as myself.

Exactly. That's how I'm branding myself. 

Robyn: Exactly. I hope you can feel who I am at my soul level, the essence of me. And that can be expressed in so many different ways. There isn't just one. 

Karen: And I feel like this whole thing you were saying about Michelle, with the tower of things breaking down, I really believe that the work world as we know it is breaking down and people like you are a trailblazer, Ami, in the sense that you are doing your thing authentically for yourself and you're showing people how to do that you're being authentic and say it scares the [00:42:00] shit out of me some days.

However, but you're moving forward and showing people that there is a way to do it. And I've always said that when I look back on my life, those rocking chair moments, I want to be able to say, I did that. I tried that. I went for that. I listened to that whisper.

I had that dream and I went for it because that's really what life is calling us to do all the time, right? Is to face it. It really is. 

Ami: It really is just to face the unknown and scary things. And I think I have a lot of baggage around failure and success and I'm trying to work through that.

And I want to leave that behind like this idea that everybody has to have everything figured out all the time and to know what's going on and what you're doing next and who you are and what your elevator pitches and what your career goals are. Honestly, that's bullshit. It's bullshit. is not human.

And that is, that's where I get caught in the rub when I get in the , applying for jobs, interviewing for job circuit. It's [00:43:00] hard for me to feel authentic in that space, and I'm like maybe that's a sign that you're not really meant to be in that space right now, and that's okay too not everybody feels as conflicted about it as I do, but I do feel conflicted I like freedom of expression and freedom of How I perceive myself and how others perceive me It's okay if people don't understand what you're doing.

 That is your business 

 The corporate environment right now is just not the right place for me. And that was already clear to me, but it's becomes continually clear. And Karen, like what you said, I really do think. The way we look at work and the nature of it is changing we had the privilege of growing up in our pre internet, pre social media, as children, teenagers era, and, we've lost a lot.

 We've gained a lot, but we've also lost a lot by this always on. culture. Yeah. I do think the pendulum is maybe about to swing in a different direction or I hope it is anyways and I hope I can be a small part of [00:44:00] that of saying okay, I'm not going to be the round peg in your square, I can't be the round peg in your square hole.

And it is okay if you don't. fit into that mold. Create your own mold, create your own path if that's what you need to do. And I think that's the biggest takeaway for me, honestly. 

Robyn: And tell us about the actual 

Ami: I don't know how I got on there.

I was probably in one of my like desperation moments, which I found myself a lot in last year. But I was like there are some witches on Etsy and covens and stuff that do spells and I was like clicking through them and I was like, I need help from outside of myself to get through this situation.

And at that point we were already pitching the Hallmark movie and I was like, Okay, I really want this to work out. I really want this to work out so badly. And I found a dream job spell on Etsy by this coven called the Black Cat Coven. And they say they're descended from [00:45:00] Salem witches or whatever.

But yeah so I paid the 13. 69 and they sent me a little meditation about I didn't tell them anything but they're like nine to five work isn't for everyone and it's not free like they sent me something back that basically was like it's not for you and remember I think I wrote it down somewhere but I don't remember exactly what it said.

And then they send you back a picture of the altar where they did the spell. And I was like it can't hurt, right? That's why not. And then, it was a few months later when it did come through and I was like, I don't know if it's all my manifestation work or the Etsy spell or whatever it was, I don't care if it was just me, it was just my time for it to happen, but I was gobsmacked by it, I was just like, wow.

this works. 

Robyn: Yeah and to your point, it could have been the combination of all. And it was also like, if you were putting your energy and attention towards this could happen, rather than all the other things when you were paying all that attention to everything that you didn't [00:46:00] want to happen.

Ami: And it did. 

Robyn: It's all of it. And if we can get some other help too, why not? 

Ami: Yeah. I also want to welcome in support, anyone who wants to support me, you can support me, even if I pay you 13, 16, I don't pay you anything like, and you want to support me on this journey by subscribing to my newsletter or, sending me a note to say, yeah, I'm thinking of you or whatever it is, like I'll take it.

We all need support when we're on difficult journeys like this. And, one of the biggest Shifts for me was thinking about this is happening to me to this is happening for me. Like this this needs to happen for me. So instead of being in a kind of victim a state of mind about it's so hard to find a job and this sucks I was like what do I need to get out of this? what do I need to learn from this? 

Karen: And that's such good advice for people who might be sitting there thinking, I don't know, I can't get out of that mindset. And it's easy to do, You get affirmation, like you were saying from everywhere. That the job market is really tough. Finding a job is 

Ami: tough. 

Karen: [00:47:00] It's reality. , 

Ami: yeah, it is reality, , but it's reality and what and what where are you in this? What can you control here? 

Robyn: this and you can apply that in all types of situations in your life.

So for right now, the main thing for you was actually work related, job related, but this could apply to any sort of crossroads moment that someone's going through. If it's loss of a loved one. It's a diagnosis that you may receive. It's all those different experiences in life that kind of bring you to your knees.

And I think you very openly shared how emotional the journey has been and continues to be. And rather than saying, why is it happening to me? It's why is this happening for me? , how can I grow from this? 

Karen: it's like what you were saying before about fear, what you focus on grows.

And so you can stay in that mantra of this is terrible, it's never going to get better, which as we said is justifiable in some ways, because that's what everybody else is saying. Or you can [00:48:00] choose to pivot your attention to things that make you happier. I do like to write. I do like to share my story.

I do want people to know who I really am and make that your mantra instead. And that's where that manifestation word really comes into play. Cause that's really energetically where you are. You're not letting yourself being dragged down by the what ifs and the fears, but you're most days I'm not, or I'm trying not to 

Ami: some days I am, I I think there's this movie that I think about all the time.

It was a documentary that came out in 1999 called The Cruise. And it's so awesome and weird, but it's about a New York City tour guide named Timothy Speed Levich, who's just amazing character. I can't describe him, but he has this philosophy about life in New York City called The Cruise.

And things are either cruise or they're anti cruise. So anti cruise is when all the obstacles come up in front of you and cruise is when the road ahead open. So if you are, in that negative mindset, like I can't find a job and this is never going to get [00:49:00] better. And trust me, I've been there and still am some days there.

But I think about okay, that's anti cruise, I'm seeing the obstacles before, how do I get back on the path where there are doors opening for me, and it can be so hard. To get on that path and for me the way to do that is always by creating I have to make something that's mine so I think If you are a person who's been laid off and you are feeling that that red light red light red light In the direction you're going Maybe you do need to pivot in a different direction and say okay, yes, the industry is horrible.

And what else, like what road can I be on right now? That's going to make me feel happier. That's going to bring me some joy or some sense of control, whatever it is that you need to get on that cruise path. 

Robyn: Ooh, I love that. That's so good. And just made me think of. Were there any books or podcasts that have helped you over this past year that have [00:50:00] helped keep you in that mindset or did inspire you to believe more in yourself 

and go forward on a certain path. 

Ami: Tons. I am a consumer of all kinds of media. I read books like crazy, listen to podcasts like crazy, watch TV and movies like crazy. But books wise, I think a book that came out recently that I read that I think is really important for anybody who's going through career transition to read is Ambition Monster by Jen Romalini.

 Really enjoyed that because she talked about how, childhood experiences or childhood trauma led to her dysfunctional relationship with work. And about her basically getting laid off of her high level media job at the height of her career. And, the way she was going down a dark road working in that way.

 I also just read a book called I'm Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself by Glynis McNichol. it's about a 40 something woman going to Paris during the pandemic, not the worst part of it, but I guess after [00:51:00] a year into the pandemic to experience joy and pleasure.

 And. It's just really well written book. And it touched on some work stuff, although that wasn't the main focus of it. Also, listening to this podcast has been really helpful, just hearing stories that resonate with me or hearing from your practitioners and their kind of amazing magical journeys has been really great.

 that's what's popping to mind off the top of my head. There's also been a lot of like Fiction books amazing escapes and like TV shows I've watched and movies I could go on and on. I have a whole section in my newsletter every week where, or every other week where I just list everything 

I love that. All the recommendations I have. One other thing I wanted to mention was I got into human design I don't you guys know a little bit about you do I've never had an official reading or anything, but just even doing my chart, I learned so much because I'm a generator and , I know most of the population are generators, but my realization was like, oh [00:52:00] I'm the kind of person who needs to sometimes let opportunities come to me.

 I am a go getter, but that might not always be right for me. Sometimes I need to hang back and see what opportunities draw to me and then decide. For generators, the thing is if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. So I need to get in the practice of listening to that was another thing this year.

I ended up saying no to a lot of opportunities, even though there were months when I was so busy, you know that I ended up saying no to a lot of opportunities, either because of time, or because they didn't feel right to me.

Robyn: it's having authority for yourself. 

Karen: Yeah. In the corporate world, you never get a chance to say no. No, 

Ami: you're not allowed to say no. , and that's a big boundary crossing, your own sovereignty, but the ability to say no, I can't, or I won't do that.

 Feels like the boundary being crossed a lot. And the more that boundary is crossed, the more comfortable you are letting not listening. When you have a no [00:53:00] inside of you, when your gut's no, so I was like, Oh, now you get to listen when there's a no. . That's the working from a place of joy. 

 That was a new thing for me and scary too, to be like, no, 

Karen: of the questions that we had for you was like, if you could tell the Ami who just got laid off over a year ago, one thing about her future self, what would it be? And before you answer that, I can just tell you energetically, what I see in you is a person who has clicked into their purpose because the fire that's coming out of you the using words like, Inspiration and boundary.

That's a huge departure. I think from where most of us who leave corporate America, not to badmouth corporate America. No, no And it needs to regulate the way it does. However, once you step out of that and you can really shine in the light of who you are, the whole world can shift.

So I would just love that. If there's that one thing, picture that Ami. Yeah, 

Ami: last year I would just tell her [00:54:00] very simply I'd tell her to keep going You know and stay the course you're gonna have so many moments and I probably will have more moment when you think you need to settle, You need to take this job. I would tell her push through those moments And keep going. And I'm still telling myself that, I still have that I should apply for this job because maybe I'll get it and 

it would be great to have a regular paycheck and I need health insurance and, all these things, but I have to, Actively stop myself from doing that and be like, you are on a course, even though you don't know what course you're on, you are on a course and you need to keep going. So that's what I would say to her.

And I would also say, I'm so sorry about what about to go through, but on the other side of it, this is going to be awesome. 

Karen: it's the back to those spiritual gifts you were talking about before, right? as trite as it seems to say out loud, this is why we're here.

Is to go through these hard things and then be able to tell the story like you are saying, you are telling the story of I did persevere. I did [00:55:00] go through with that. I wrote the damn movie and I did it. I did the thing. 

Robyn: And you're writing the movie of your life in addition.

Ami: Yes, I am. And maybe this will end up a book, maybe it will end up a play, maybe it will end up a movie, or maybe not. But . I'm here to, like you said, you're here to tell the story. I am very much here to tell the story. Creativity and creative connection and storytelling is my purpose.

 And so I have to tell the story, 

Robyn: And now we all know it. Whereas it was somehow getting buried underneath titles and responsibility at this other job. And now ego stuff, it was getting buried 

Ami: under ego stuff, it 

Karen: happened. You wouldn't have had the opportunity to tell the story.

Ami: No, and I think something people should know is your paycheck does not give you the security you think it gives you. 

Robyn: Yes we were talking about that before, we were taping. We were talking about it's this false sense of security. It is 

Ami: a false sense of security and I think a lot of that false sense of security was [00:56:00] ripped away during the pandemic a little bit.

 But for some reason that made me cling to it harder, stronger. I think people think if I have this much money, I'll be safe. If I have this kind of job, I'll be safe. If I have this kind of partner, I'll be whatever it is, that people think makes them safe.

 that was a real aha moment for me. It was like, Oh, there is no safe place to be you have to be safe within yourself. You have to make yourself a safe place. . And so I was like I need to work on making myself a safer place for me.

I love that. 

Robyn: and one more thing. Something else that came up when we were preparing for our conversation today is about not competing with anyone else. 

Ami: Oh, yes. Comparing yourself to others is really like the bane and the boon of your own success.

 Once you're scrolling through LinkedIn and you're like on that LinkedIn and you're seeing all the people who are doing the jobs and getting the jobs and talking about the, social media in general, and you're thinking Oh, this person has this and does it like you cannot do that.

Ami: You need to [00:57:00] back off limit your time on that. You might need to be on LinkedIn, but limit your time on LinkedIn. And do not compare yourself to other people. that's something I've learned a long time ago, but I've had to really put into practice. Now is to be like, everyone's on their own journey and their own timeline.

Robyn: That's right. 

Ami: My timeline is not your timeline, it's not the next person's timeline, it's not the person after that's timeline. Comparing yourself to others and what they're doing is futile. Instead let yourself be inspired by others. Let yourself be expanded by others, I used to feel envious in a certain way. And now I'm just like what is it about them that's really inspiring me or speaking to me? And if you see someone out there that you're like, Oh my God, they're like kicking so much ass. What's their secret, reach out to them, tell them how much, ask them if they want to meet with you, . If there's any way to reframe the competition bit, and also I hear from so many, younger people who either have worked for me or who are in my network and. They feel like they have to move on to the next step in their career and they have to [00:58:00] grow and they have, and I just want to say no, you don't.

 Careers can be circular and circuitous and winding, like it's not a straight ascent to the top. It's a winding road and people have life events. And those things change you.

And you have to incorporate and make room for you changing, you don't have to feel like you always have to be chasing after the next carrot. And honestly, I feel let's just take that pressure off of ourselves 

Robyn: . I love that. Oh my God.

There's been so much wisdom shared and so much inspiration, Ami. You inspire me. I'm sure you're inspiring Karen. thank you for walking the walk. You are walking the walk and you're sharing all these experiences that are going to help so many people. Again. no matter where they are and whatever crossroads they are at in their lives.

And I'm excited to see where your journey is going to go. I'm excited for your Christmas movie and hopefully work together, more in the future. 

Ami: And I want to say [00:59:00] you guys inspire me as well. And what you're doing inspires me and your podcast. I listen to it all the time. And Feel inspired.

So thank you and thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk about this and I hope people know that even though i'm speaking about everything It still is vulnerable to put your first person experience out there, 

thank you for being supportive and for giving me the opportunity to talk about it with your audience and I hope that people do get something out of it and, for anyone who's in a crossroads and for anyone who's been laid off recently, I'm here with you.

I see you and I feel you. 

Robyn: And they should subscribe to your can find you? 

Ami: my newsletter is called Laid Off Life, and you can subscribe through Substack. It's laidofflife. substack. com. And you can follow me on LinkedIn. I'm just under my name there, Ami Angelowicz.

Or you can find me on Instagram at Amibethz. 78. You can visit my website, Amiangelowicz. com or alignsocialmedia. [01:00:00] com. If you're looking for some help in the content content strategy, social media space, I help individuals, businesses, and brands. So reach out and I would love to 

Robyn: hear from people.

Yeah. And we'll have all of these links in our show notes. And I'm going to actually spell your Amiandelowitz. com for people. So it's Ami with an I, so it's A M I A N G E L O W I C Z. com. 

Karen: I love there's an angel in there, Ami. 

Ami: There is an angel in there. I say, it's like Ami, A M I, and then angel, O W I, C as in cat, Z as in zebra. That's how I spell it to everybody. 

. Beautiful name for 

Karen: a beautiful soul. Thank you so much, 

Ami: Ami. Thank you.