Meet Dr. Amy Robbins, she is a clinical psychologist, who is also a Spiritual Medium. She is also the host of the podcast, “Life, Death and the Space Between,” where she explores life, death and what it all means.
Amy and Robyn Miller Brecker, intuitive and host of “Seeking with Robyn”, are dear friends who have been on this seeking journey together — and know that their friendship is no coincidence. They have conversations questioning everything all of the time — and are excited to have intuitive and Executive Producer Karen Loenser join them as they dive deeper into Amy’s journey and what she’s learned so far.
They hope their conversation will inspire you to question everything -- and start looking both within and all around you.
Amy shares how the loss of her beloved aunt put her on the path to where she is today—bridging two different worlds…one founded in science — and the other founded in energy and spirituality. Amy is a rare combination! Her goal is to open people’s minds and souls to live a more connected life.
Over the last several years Amy has talked to renown spiritual teachers, healers and scientists. Even though she does consider herself a Spiritual Medium, Amy still approaches life as a skeptic. As she says, “A skeptics mind is a curious mind and a curious mind is an open mind and it’s through that open mindedness that you get information.”
Robyn invites you to be open-minded and explore what life, death and the space between means to you.
Have you ever wondered about life's biggest questions? Like, why am I here? What happens when we die? Or what else is out there, but we have, and we love to talk about it. And if you're listening, we think you probably do too. I'm Robyn and I'm Karen and we've spent our lives searching for those answers.
And we're seekers, just like you talking to some of the most fascinating spiritual teachers, healers and scientists. And showing you how you can use some of their spiritual practices for yourself. Also be sharing stories of other seekers. They motivate you to live your fullest life. We translating it all.
So the spiritual stuff won't feel so out there. So if you're curious, get ready to rediscover why we're here together.
I'm so excited for today's conversation because it is with my dear friend, dr. Amy Robbins. Amy is a clinical psychologist, spiritual medium, and the host of the podcast life, death, and the space between like us. Amy is a seeker. Our own spiritual awakening opened her up to an entirely new way of looking at the world.
She started to question everything. She brings her experience and knowledge as a psychologist, along with her knowing as a spiritual medium to every interview. It's a rare combination. Her goal is to open people's minds and souls to live a more connected life. Over the last several years, Amy has talked to renounce spiritual teachers and healers.
Today. We're going to talk about Amy's personal experience as well as what she's learned over her many spiritual conversations. Hi, so great to have you here. Oh, excited to be glad we're doing this. Finally return the favor. Hopefully this will lead to many more for both of us. Yeah. Yeah. So funny for me, it's like, I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity because I listened to your podcast.
Right. Every day, commuting into the city, or every time you publish one, I would like be right on the next one. And so it's like, Oh, so I get to see you for real. And it's so weird to me when people recognize my voice because they've listened. It's just a very weird phenomenon. Oh, it's, it's like, I want to get to my desk and I don't get to the end of it.
It's so frustrating. It's like, I don't want my day to start until I get there. Good. Amy Kelly. I want to talk about how that even came to be, but let's start by talking about your spiritual awakening. How did it all happen? So, if you've listened to my podcast, you might've heard this story already, but I come from a very conventional family.
My grandfather was a pediatrician. My uncle is an orthopedic surgeon. My father's a dentist. Like we are not seekers that wasn't me. But looking back, I definitely was curious about this world. And when I was 18 years old, my aunt passed away. From juvenile onset diabetes, she had, she was waiting for a pancreas and kidney transplant.
And in order to get the transplant, she needed to undergo a bunch of tests and make sure that her body would be able to withstand the transplant. I was 18. I was a freshman in college at the time, really death hadn't kind of been in my wheelhouse. I lost some great grandparents, but never anybody that was super close.
And my aunt was really. Like a second mother to me, when she went in for the free kind of checkoff, they found that she had experienced several heart attacks and that her heart would not withstand a transplant. Oh my God. Goodness. Yeah. So they ended up going in to repair her heart. And when they went into repair her heart, there was so much damage.
They couldn't restore her heart. And so she ended up dying on the table. And then I got the call that she had passed away and we had the Shabbat and I went back to school two days later and kind of went on with my life, except that I didn't, because I had so much unresolved grief. I had sorta my own psychological story that I had told myself about her life and how my life was going to sort of parallel that how similar they looked in so many ways she was the oldest child.
Three. I'm the oldest of three. She had a younger sister and brother. I had a younger sister and brother. So psychologically, I had really identified with her and her daughter, Johnny, and also really feared that I would end up like her. So there was a lot of pieces there that I had to sort through and I went to therapy and started to work through my grief.
And now looking back, my first experience of what I now know to be called after death communication probably happened shortly after she passed away. And she showed up for me. She was in a red sweater. She was showing herself playing golf. And she said, tell your mom that she doesn't have to feel guilty about enjoying golf.
Now at the time, I had no idea and I've never, I don't even think I've ever talked about this piece of it because it really wasn't the communication that. Made me believe at that point, I thought it was a dream. Never even said anything to anybody, but as I'm even speaking to you now, it is as clear I can close my eyes and see what this looked like.
As clear as I'm talking to the chills. Yeah. Because I've never heard that one from you. And my mom loves golf and she really struggled after my aunt died playing golf because she knew it was something that she enjoyed and felt a lot of guilt around my aunt, not being here. It was survivor's guilt, right?
Like she couldn't be there to enjoy it. So that was the first experience at the time thought nothing of it. Well, and don't you think that a lot of people and will, I know talk more about all the different ways that you've now learned over your many conversations, how people get messages, right. And you yourself, which we'll get to, but the fact that that is like one of the first times that you can remember.
And that can help other people who are listening or watching right now, you know, pay attention to those dream States. We actually were talking about that before we even got going today. There's something about that, that period of time, that sort of Twila and it's, it's usually an, it's why I call it. Like, that's why Twilight almost like when you're get Novacane.
Well, your teeth and you're in that kind of like woo state that's most open, I think, right. Robyn talks a lot about she's in the shower. She's blow drying her hair. You know, it's when your mind is just really at rest and is not trying to process too much, I think is when that, that those messages can come and.
Amy. It just makes me think for a moment. Did you ever think that your aunt could have been one of your guides? I'm convinced now that that is a hundred percent the case like she has in her life and in her death been my, my, probably my greatest teacher. But because of the psychological work that it forced me to do, and also the spiritual work that it forced me to do.
And I think often we see those things as separate, but they're not, they're very much integrated and you have to do both because you do bring all of that to the table. And as I've said to you for years, Not many people do. So this is really exciting. But then tell us then what, what was the cause I know that there was another very profound experience with her.
So right before my cousin who her son was getting married. And she came to me and very clearly I saw sort of two images. One was my mom was standing at the kitchen sink talking to her. And my aunt said to me, tell her it's okay. I will be at the wedding. She doesn't need to be upset. I will be there. And another was her telling me to tell her brother, she hears him when he speaks to her.
And the image was of him pushing his son in a buggy, kind of running on a pan. I woke up and I thought, what was that? And at the time I was in grad school, I must've been 24 at the time. So it was about five years after she died. And I went to one of my professors who was very, very grounded in psychological theory.
But she also was very spiritual. So I knew that she would be sort of a safe person. And when I shared this with her, she said, Oh my God, your aunt is coming to you. You need to open this up. You have a gift. And I was like, what was she talking about? She said, she gave me the name of someone. She was like, you need to call them immediately.
And I thought, well, I don't know. I told my mom what had happened. My mom said to me, Oh my gosh, last night I was. Standing at the kitchen sink, crying, talking to Linda, her sister saying, I can't believe she's not going to be at this wedding. And we both started crying and I said she is going to be there and just called my uncle.
Same thing. That's always, when I talk to her as, when I'm out walking or running and, and I. Just thought. Okay. There's more here. Went back to my professor and she said, you, you need to talk to the spirits folk come to you. And then that professor, right, she is still my person that I go to when I have questions.
And so I did, I asked my aunt to show us a sign. She loved Neil diamond. My mom got into the car to pick up my brother who was flying in for my cousin's wedding, turned on the radio and sure enough, there was a Neil diamond song that I love it, but then still wasn't totally convinced my grandfather passed away.
It happened again all around big events. It was a wedding again, when he came to me and he gave me information and he knew when nickname that I didn't know. And then it started happening with patients. And then I sort of lost my mind, frankly, like not literally, but was, was, was overwhelmed with what to do.
Things were happening in my house. Lights were like the entire house would zoom in and out of electricity. And I called the neighbor once and I was like, are you having a power outage? She said, no, I've no idea what you're talking about. So in my mid thirties was when like the lights and there was really like just a lot of energy happening.
And then I felt like I'd lost control. And at that point went back to my professor and she said, you need to call one of her friends who was a medium and you need to start learning. I was nervous because I had a clinical path. Many of the people who refer to me are. Physicians and to put yourself out there in a way where you're risking.
I mean, I feared risking my clinical practice, which is my livelihood to say that this is, this has been my experience. This is what I'm starting to believe. This is in some way, altering the way I think about the therapeutic work I do. So how I see people when they come into my office is not just through one lens and it never was, but it was always through a psychological lens.
It was not as much. And I. Again, don't think they're separate, but I saw them as very separate. So I didn't think about, Oh, is this person's symptoms possibly related to a past life? Is there stuck energy here? Can they move that? It was very much what happened in their early childhood. And why are they behaving in this way now?
And I think that it has, has allowed me to open up to be curious about all of these pieces when I'm treating someone. So when you had that happened with. Like in your mid thirties and you talk to your professor, you then called the person that she recommended. And then what happened from there? Because I can't do anything, Robyn, you know, this without feeling like I have studied and researched and no net.
And I spent, I don't know, two or three years with this woman and we practiced and learned, I learned about mediumship. It's so funny because as I talk about it, I still am like, Oh, I don't know. I used to do that to time. And I'm like, but you really have spent a lot of time. Yeah, I have. It's only when I reflect on it that I'm like, I have spent a lot of times she worked on teaching me and how you go into a meditation and how you protect yourself with boundaries and how you make sure that you are inviting in messages.
That messages are not, you're not being bombarded all the time. And she really encouraged me. To again, put myself out there. I was doing this reading and in the reading, I had said to this friend of mine who is a peripheral friend, I don't really know her, her husband's father came through. So her father-in-law and I had said, he's showing me a ring with a blue stone in it.
And I had given her other messages, but that was this. Takeaway for her because she went home and told her husband and he said, my dad didn't have jewelry. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't believe this. Frankly. He then went home that weekend, his mother's house, and his mom walked in the room and said, I just found this ring of your dad.
And it was the exact ring that I had described it. And he said he just about fell over. And this wasn't that long ago, mean this was maybe five years ago. Right. And so then I started my little internship where I said I would open myself up to read people for what was going to be a month and ended up being, I think, three or four.
And I did about 30 or 40 readings. And then I decided it was not from what was it, was it. Pressure of feeling like you had to get things. Right. And is that really what it came? That was certainly part of it. And the other part of it was that I'm so used to being a therapist and being in it with people that it felt like it wasn't enough.
For me, for me, the real richness of having a reading, it's what you do after the reading. It's how you then take it, take that information and integrate it to who you are and to what you believe and to how you see the world. You think about things. And so when I was reading, I wanted to do more. And so I just decided, I think.
Robyn, you know me well enough to know that part of it was like, I didn't want to bring someone into a space where they would feel misled or that I wasn't accurate because when people are in their grief and they're desperately looking to connect, the last thing I want to be. Is to be viewed as a charlatan or someone who was inauthentic.
And I know intention is really important and that would never be my intention. I am not a natural medium in the, in the way that some of the famous mediums out there describe their experience. For me, it really is a practice and I don't practice enough. It is a practice and, or you are truly just, I did, right.
It isn't a Nate gift habit, but some people, I think just like some people have a better voice than others. You know, some people are born with it being more heightened than others, and that's not me. It didn't feel, talk about paying attention to your intuition. Like that was where I wanted to be here.
Still that tool to help enhance the people that you work with. In a way is, is your calling? Yeah, it's pretty. I mean, just to help someone transform their life as a therapist is the most rewarding experience. When I think about you and how fortunate your clients and patients are. Because you bring all of this, you are one of the smartest people I know you are.
And so to have that, and because of what we said today, you are so good at whatever you put your mind to, right. To bring that with this intuitive part of you. I wish I had that in a therapist. Amy, are most of your patients open to this kind of thinking? Yeah. Some are really curious and have opened up and have explored, you know, Things that I haven't even explored yet.
And other people are like very much kind of probably how I would have ended up had this not happened to me there. Isn't that kind of quest to know what else there is. And that's fine with me. I stopped worrying that everybody needed to believe that this was true. And I was just like, okay, I'm going to do it.
And if people don't believe it, or if people think I'm out there, I mean, I still have friends that don't know that I have a podcast. That's my part of your spiritual work is to be able to let go of what other people think. And, and that's a huge lesson for me, you know, this right that I'm always working on.
And so for me to do the podcast, Was a huge step. One of my very dear friends is a physician who refers to me and she knew about this, but another physician who refers to me, I was like, do I tell him, do I not? What if one of his patients Google's mate and they see that I have this podcast. And then they go back to him and say, do you know who you referred me to?
Would I never get another referral from him? And so I sent him an email and I said, Hey, just wanted to let you know. I have this podcast. Here's a little bit about that. I would love for you to listen. I don't know if he ever listen. I don't know that he cares, you know, that sends you referrals. Again, that's how you handle it, right?
Like you're so upfront, but then the letting go, right. But you're responsible. That's the word I was looking for. You're very responsible in the way that you go about life, but also in the way you even went about this. Right. Because I know for you for such a long time, you were worried about your practice because you love what you do.
So, but you wanted to pursue, because you knew that there was this other piece of you. That you needed to fulfill and explore. Right. So I know I'm just so happy that you took the leap and you were a big part in helping me do that as the viewer, as the listener here, what made you do it said, Oh my God, Robyn knows this because like I tried on so many days, I was like, I was like a domino.
Like I kept getting up and I'm like falling flat and like getting up and falling flat. Like I went down so many different paths and Robyn kept seeing me. Yeah, but there's like so many other people out there that are doing this, or I don't really think that's the direction that you need to head. And, and I needed, I needed to do those things because I needed to find this this way I own.
But I remember I. Bought this program, because I was going to put all these courses online and I had spent an embarrassing amount of money on a program. And so I remember waking up, we were on spring break and this was this eight week online course. And it was so aggressive and it was so not me and I pushed through it because that's what I do is like I pushed through.
And I remember my stomach being like whittled with anxiety. This was like three years ago. And my husband saying to me, what are you doing? This does not matter. You are so upset over something that you can let go of tomorrow. You, you are doing this to yourself. And I was like, he is a hundred percent.
Right. And at that point, I said, you know what? This is not me. I am not just going to get online and see. Sell some course that I put together. If it's not really what I want to do, because I wanted my voice to be out in the world more. That was what this was about is that I felt like I had more to say and that a lot of what I sat in my sessions, I wanted to say to more people.
I wanted more people to hear and to learn and to understand them, to start, start their own seeking. I committed in June and then I released. In December of 2018 and it's been the best thing I've ever done. So how did you decide obviously, right. Robyn helped. I'm sure you had lots of people giving you thoughts and ideas, but what, what that two to the life death and the space between, like, how did you get to that?
Because the space between men, to me, the space between life and death, It meant what happens after you die and that space it's also, for me, my space, what felt like straddling these two worlds, I felt like I was in this space between super, super conventional and like, I could probably go way. Outfit like Robyn.
And I've had some of these talks about, like, we could go right there with you. If somebody, you know, who's listening now has not seen your podcast, how would you describe it, Amy? I say, we talk about life death consciousness and what it all means. So are somewhat skeptical. Sometimes even though you can do this yourself, you question different spirits and modalities you question people.
And are they real? Because I think what the three of us know is that not everybody. Is really good at maybe what they're saying. They're good at. We are very careful, I believe in vetting people and making sure that the people that we talk to are authentic, they are the real deal. You bring so much credibility because I know that you're approaching it from this skepticism.
Yeah. And. You know, I want people, and I know that mediums often say this. They want people to be skeptics, right? Because really a skeptic's mind is a curious mind. And a curious mind is an open mind. And it's through that. Open-mindedness that you get information. No loved one is ever coming to you. If you don't.
We'll leave. I think they'll fill up. I interviewed him. He's a medium said, do you have to believe it to see it? Or do you have to see it to believe it? That's good. I love the fact that you're able to bring these people on your show so that we can get just a little bit of a taste of what they've written or what they've done and who they are as a person.
So we can decide for ourselves if they're credible or if we feel comfortable. Believing what they believe. And ultimately when you're looking to heal, that's really, this is where I've kind of come along with the therapist is like, that's really all that matters. Like if, if you can heal, if you can find someone that you connect with that you feel like can help you heal, you know, if they're not hurting you, who am I to say that what they're doing?
Isn't right. I, we talked about this so many times. It's like, it's, there's a lot of this, it's all the same. It's just a different flavor. Right. And I like vanilla. And you like strawberries. I would just love to know what has been your most profound spiritual experience? I lost a friend of mine's husband who was also our, my friend passed away a year ago.
And one of the jokes that the funeral was about. His dislike of mayonnaise. So the funeral I think, was on a Thursday and that Friday night, this other podcast are terrible. Thanks for asking has a podcast. She lost her husband to a brain tumor. My friend lost her husband to a brain tumor. She had been, my friend had been following this woman and loved her podcast.
And that night, this woman was going to be in Chicago, doing a book, reading and assigning, and I went to the signing and recorded it. I wanted to see it, but I also recorded it for my friend. And I said to her husband, if you could give me like, Mayo. That would be amazing. I know that's a big ass and honestly, I way home, it was like 10 30 at night.
I turned the corner in front of the apartment building that I used to live in which the address was four 44, which Robyn and I have this four, four, four thing. Was a car parked with the license plate Mayo. And I thought, and it's in those moments where like that field in that moment, I meant like such a profound experience.
You cannot explain it. Like I had goosebumps, I drove by it. I had to go around again. I was nervous that it was going to like disappear. Because sometimes I'll see things and they're so fleeting that by the time I look back, it's gone. Oh, I remember you called me. I remember that. I was like, wait, she called calling a few times.
Something must be wrong. Then it was late. I mean, it was. So it was breathtaking and it's those moments where I just think the universe is so amazing. And I think also if I do automatic writing sometimes, which I don't do often, but when I do and the messages come through. Do you define it, Amy? Cause I that's a, it's a really good point.
I think everybody has a different definition. How do you define, I define it as, as sort of soul knowing. I love that. I love that too. And you just write whatever comes to like I was kept feeling like I need to, I need to sit and meditate on this notion of truth. It's interesting that you said that earlier Robyn, something about truth.
I keep hearing like, sit down, sit down and write, sit down and write. And so this morning I finally did. It's not from here. It's from here. Well, and then also I know that you've had a few other types of spiritual experiences have any of those, whether it was a past life aggression or an astrology reading, have those helped you?
Would you say, I feel like they've more validated than help and you know, I've wondered why that is. I just have done a lot of inner work. 17 years of therapy. I. I think that I know myself pretty well. And so if someone said something to me that was like, so mind blowing, it would actually maybe scare me a little bit because I'm like, how have I missed that?
I know for sure it can be extremely validating. And for other people who haven't done as much work, it can actually really help them because they feel so lost. Right. So I get what you're saying and I think it can, it can maybe be a springboard. To therapy or to that inner work, because if they say something that you, that really does resonate, then you can go do the work.
I think that the work has to be the psychological and the spiritual together. You don't know that one is the answer over the album, one spiritual modality that you've learned about that you look forward to trying. Oh, I did this episode with Raymond Moody. And if people don't know Raymond Moody, he is the researcher on near death and shared death experiences.
He's probably in his eighties now, late seventies, but he talks about these psycho magnesium's cycle, man teams. They're called the Oracles of the dead, where they set up this space. It's called mirror gazing and you walk in and you see. That and you gaze into this mirror and your loved one shows up. I remember this episode and I talked, I called Robyn that night.
I'm like, I have got to try that. It sounds right. Weird when you're telling it. Right. But when you listen to the science, there's science. Okay. Kind of curious why it's not more of a modality if it's. If it works, right. I think it could allow for people to have the experience of connecting well, talking though about the mirror gazing, I'm just like picturing, like you're in a room with all these different mirrors and you're staring at yourself.
Is that the deal? Yeah, I think so. You're in a room with. Not all of these different mirrors, just one mirror. Oh, it's just one mirror. Okay. And you're kind of looking into it and it's dark and you're just sort of letting your eyes kind of settle. Got it. In that, I guess you start to see your love. You.
Invite them to come forward and you start to see that wow. Out. I'm going to look that up. It's a little Harry Potter. Isn't it? That is exactly what made me think of it to be a tradition that came from some, or just like crystals, same idea, look into something and see, so, well, if you do it, let us know, because I thought that was fascinating.
What would you say she has been one of the more memorable. Conversations or stories that you've done it feel bad picking why mean I know, and it doesn't have to be the most. It's just one of them. Cause I know you've had many, I interviewed a near death experience or who was struck by lightning. He's a doctor, the way that he described the experience of getting struck and then watching like his, I think it was his wife or his mother-in-law when he got struck, like run down the stairs.
Rule him. And he like how he described everything that he experienced when he was the dad was unbelievable. It was just so perfect to hear a lot of near death experience of some kind of talked about like they're floating or, you know, suddenly they find themselves in this beautiful space where they feel filled with love with the way that he described.
It just seems like. Holy shit like, Oh my God, that one stayed with me too. And then honestly, just people's stories. Like everybody has a story. Everybody. That's amazing. One of my favorite episodes was a very sciencey one. It was about the woman who wrote a book about, I guess her father had passed away and she was sitting with him as he was dying and started to realize that he was speaking to people.
In the room and that led her on that quest of really experiencing death was a lot of, yeah. Other people and writing about how they all were starting to say the same things. There were people that were coming into the room and who they recognize and the looks on their faces. And for those of us who have people dying around us right now, it can give you so much.
Hope that there is, there is more out there and having somebody who was, I think if she a linguist, maybe somebody who really understand language doing that work, it just, it just gives us a depth of life that we would never have. If we didn't look for it or just, just stop. If I had a loved one in the hospital dying right now, and I could not visit them.
That would be awful and I would be traumatized and I would be going to therapy to talk about that. But I would also know and trust that hopefully my grandma and my grandfather, my aunts, you know, whomever would be, their guides would be waiting for them to, to help them cross over. Then. It's just the way you feel about those situations.
So important. I think that is really one of the main reasons. All of us are doing what we're doing is so that. People hopefully can wake up to this idea, the idea of energy all around us and that we never really die and that we are never alone. We are never alone. I repeat that. I don't know how many times during a day, actually two different people, because.
It's very easy in our humanness to get caught up, especially now, you know, certain people are feeling more isolated than they have ever felt before, or if you're in a hospital alone. And I know I had a family member who experienced that, but I knowing which is, I know our knowing is that you are never alone and that if everybody could understand that we would have so much less fear often we think about just our loved ones.
But we also, you talk about this, we have our spirit guides, you know, and I think that as we become more conscious, we're more able to access our guides. Yes. As well. Right? Well, I think that's actually really important because there are people who haven't lost loved ones or good friends, which is great for them and this human life right now.
That's their journey, but we all have guides. We don't know them in our humanness. We don't know their names. You don't have to, but you can. I've done meditations to meet my guides in my, between life regression. I met, I met my God. Karen wants to do that. Remember our intention for why we came. It would be so helpful that loss of memory that we have.
I know that's the journey. I know. That's. The purpose for us being here. I think we always kind of deeply know. I think it's always there. It's just, we need to use the tools to wake that back up so we can remind them. I think it's validation and yes, another part is I do think we do know. We know sometimes we just need someone else to say it outside of us.
Right, right. Which was exactly my point. When you asked the question, like what's been, it's just validated that I'm not supposed to be an accountant through all of your conversations and your own experiences. What would be one thing you'd tell people watching or listening to try or to do, if they are feeling lost or feeling hopeless, what would a therapy.
You're going to say that about this. And I thought about what is it? Is it, you know, mediumship? Is it energy healing? Is it past life regression? And I think that no matter which of those, any modality you choose, it always comes back to knowing yourself, being able to talk through what is going on in your own mind.
Say it out loud to have someone else bear witness to it and to have someone else help you sort through it and help you understand it is the best gift you can give here. Therapy does help you get to know yourself. And if that's a new concept for you and you're feeling like loss, That is a perfect way to start.
It started take that time, starting to uncover, starting to remember Karen, as you were saying, it's like that remembering. And when you start to open that up, there's a lot that comes with it. That's our work that is we're here to work on our souls, right? Whatever this plan that we made for ourselves before we came here.
That's the work and it's not always easy. No, not easy. That's the other part is the fear of just not being perfect. The fear of that, we're not as good as everybody. Else's right. And I think that that keeps people away from therapy because they don't want to put a voice to that feeling of not being good enough.
I'm guilty of that. I've always avoided therapy for that reason. That's what goes back to what we were saying at the very beginning. It's like, everybody needs to find the tools that are comfortable for them. And I think, you know, one of the things that I didn't talk about as much in the beginning was that I was really riddled with anxiety.
Not only as a result of my aunt's death. I think that was a big piece of it, but just because I had. So identified with her life in so many ways. And it made me really anxious and I thought I was going to die. Like she was, and I thought my life was going to end like hers did. And, and I had to process that in therapy and her visits and spiritual guidance helped me let go of that.
So the two together that's that's that in between, it was like the two pieces together for me were the perfect, lacking key. I trust that I'm going to be okay. They're happy as a tool. And I think what you've uncovered and I know what we're uncovering is there so many times the podcast is a tool totally as well.
Yeah, I know. I'm so excited for it. All that's still to come, but we're doing it. And you did take a leave of your own faith. You trusted yourself and you got out of your own way. The big lesson is I love you guys for yeah. Knowing each other and bringing this conversation to all of us. Are knowing each other was definitely cause it was planned that's for sure.
And it was the right time to, we met at the right time to help one another. And I think what we all are doing together is we're going to help. Lots of other people realize why they're here and the more conversations and more working together. And you can find Amy's podcast. Life death and the space between wherever you listen to your podcasts.
So go subscribe and download them now. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye .