Seeking Center: The Podcast

Transcending Grief: Letting Go of the Pain + Finding Joy Again - Episode 87

November 06, 2023 Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Kat B, Paige Lee Season 2 Episode 87
Transcending Grief: Letting Go of the Pain + Finding Joy Again - Episode 87
Seeking Center: The Podcast
More Info
Seeking Center: The Podcast
Transcending Grief: Letting Go of the Pain + Finding Joy Again - Episode 87
Nov 06, 2023 Season 2 Episode 87
Robyn Miller Brecker, Karen Loenser, Kat B, Paige Lee

If you’ve lost someone close to you, whether that person is a child, a parent, a spouse, a sibling or a great friend, the pain you feel can be so overwhelming, you may feel you’ll never heal or find happiness again.

We’re honored and grateful to introduce you to grief educator, healing practitioner, intuitive and author Paige Lee – and welcome back our dear friend, Spiritual Medium, Intuitive, Reiki Healing Practitioner and teacher Kat B. They are both here to reassure you that joy is possible and that your loved ones in Spirit are sending love and healing energy.

We’re talking about conscious grieving, conscious healing, the connection you can have with a loved one in Spirit and transcending grief. And while these are serious topics, Kat and Paige bring the levity needed to help you breakthrough the heaviness.


Visit for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

If you’ve lost someone close to you, whether that person is a child, a parent, a spouse, a sibling or a great friend, the pain you feel can be so overwhelming, you may feel you’ll never heal or find happiness again.

We’re honored and grateful to introduce you to grief educator, healing practitioner, intuitive and author Paige Lee – and welcome back our dear friend, Spiritual Medium, Intuitive, Reiki Healing Practitioner and teacher Kat B. They are both here to reassure you that joy is possible and that your loved ones in Spirit are sending love and healing energy.

We’re talking about conscious grieving, conscious healing, the connection you can have with a loved one in Spirit and transcending grief. And while these are serious topics, Kat and Paige bring the levity needed to help you breakthrough the heaviness.


Visit for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker, 

Karen: and I'm Karen Loenser. Welcome to seeking center. The podcast,

Robyn: join us each week as we have the conversations and weed through the spiritual and holistic clutter for you, we'll boil it down to what you need to know. Now 

Karen: we're all about total wellness, which to us needs building a healthy life on a physical, mental, and spiritual level.

We'll talk to the trailblazers who will introduce you to the practices, products, and experiences. That may be just what you need to hear about to transform your life. 

If you're listening to this, it's no accident. Think of this as your seeking center and your place to seek your center. And for even more mega inspo sign up for seeking center.

The newsletter at seeking center 

Robyn: If you've lost someone close to you, whether that person is a child, a parent, a spouse, a sibling, or a great friend, the pain you feel can be so overwhelming. You may feel like you'll never heal or find happiness again. We're honored and grateful to introduce [00:01:00] you to grief eduKator, healing practitioner, intuitive, and author Paige Lee.

And to welcome back our dear friend, spiritual medium, intuitive Reiki healing practitioner and teacher, Kat B. They are both here to reassure you that joy is possible and that your loved ones in spirit are sending love and healing energy your way. We're going to talk about conscious grieving, conscious healing, the connection you can have with a loved one in spirit and transcending grief.

And while these are serious topics. Kat and Paige bring the levity needed to help you break through the heaviness. There is so much to discuss. Hi, Kat! 

Paige: Hey! Oh, hi! Thank you so much! 

Karen: Good to have you here, both of you. 

Robyn: Yeah, and Paige, your path to this work was driven by a tragic and profound loss. What happened that caused your spiritual awakening? And what has your journey been so far to get you where you are right now?

Paige: Oh my gosh Robyn that's such a good question. So I could talk for [00:02:00] days on the topic, but I'll summarize for you. It was 15 years ago last month September and 15 years now, which is shocking to me because I didn't think I would survive this tragedy. a month or a year, much less 15 years.

And here we are. But my only living child, and I say only living because I have four babies in spirit that never took a breath. And my only living son, Bryan, who was amazing, still is, of course, but in physical, very smart, very accomplished in sports, and all of those things. And he was at USC in Los Angeles.

And he was walking home one night with some friends and ended up. iN a neighborhood that was not their normal route home and had an encounter with somebody who ended up taking his life with a knife. So it was a single knife wound after an interaction after a fight. And in fact, there had been a fight to Bryan.

Kind of, I guess you could say was the victor of that fight, the Bryan and his boys got up and walked away. The man went back into his mother's apartment, [00:03:00] grabbed a knife came running out straight up to Bryan and just one swift movement ended his life. And you get that phone call at five in the morning and your whole world.

falls to pieces, right? You're broken. I just remember dropping the phone and falling to my knees and screaming. And you can't believe that this is happening in your life, right? Things like that only happen to other people. But sadly, that's not true. It could happen to anybody at any time. And so the whole journey, went from being on the floor that day to three weeks later, I was awake and I heard Bryan call out to me loudly.

He called mom and I literally jumped up and I said, Bryan, I hear you. Where are you? Where are you? And that was what changed my whole life. I was off and running. I promised him at that moment that I would not stop seeking him that I knew he still lived. I don't want to say there was never a doubt because there were moments where I was doubting what was happening for me, of course, but I never looked back.

I never. I stopped that search for him and I said, [00:04:00] I will find you and I did. And not only did I find him, I always say kind of the bonuses of the journey are that I found him in spirit, which is such a magnificent, amazing, beautiful being of light, who guides me and works with me and everything that I do still very present in my life in our home, but I found my God, which I'd never had a close relationship with.

And I found myself, which was really the biggest gift of the journey. And Spirit showed me the analogy this morning of the title of your podcast being Seeking Center. And so really, that's what my whole journey has been, is seeking center and coming back to the truth of who I am. And so I think that summarizes pretty well what happened.

Robyn: I honestly want to cry right now. 

Paige: Because of the whole 

Robyn: Entire story. 

Paige: It's shocking. don't know. Sometimes I think, why me? Why us? But I do believe that there is a plan bigger than we know and bigger than we see and having trust and faith and something outside of ourselves has been what has got me here today.

Cause there were days where I didn't want to be [00:05:00] here and. For people that eventually might read my book, you can read the story about how I may have ended my life, but I chose not to because it wasn't my journey. My journey was to be here to survive this, to have this connection with him in the afterlife and to be able to share what I've learned with other people.

That's what I do. That's what keeps a smile on my face because he's always right here. Always. Thank you. 

Karen: First of all, for sharing that. I think many of our listeners can identify we've all lost some one, 

Paige: but the tragedy 

Karen: of losing someone so young in such a senseless way is such 

Paige: a weight to carry.

And yet the strength of him to come through to reach you from the others. 

Karen: I'm ready to cry on that because we know that is incredible strength. And it, says something about the bond of the two of you. 

together, which is also incredible. just before we move on paige. I just want to ask, were 

you spiritual before this all happened?

What was your beliefs 

Paige: of the afterlife before Bryan passed? I had not a spiritual bone in my body, to be honest with you. I believed in heaven. We [00:06:00] were raised Presbyterian, but it was just like, put on the white gloves and the pretty dress on Easter. and go to church. That was the extent of our spirituality and my family.

But I was raised Presbyterian. I've always believed in God. I have bibles, but I would never studied the Bible. So religion was never my path. But I did loosely believe in God and I believed in a heaven up there somewhere. And now of course, I don't believe that heaven is up there. But I do believe in the afterlife, because you'll probably segue into this, but there has been so much that has happened that I can't deny.

I cannot deny my son, first of all, with all of his pleadings and urgings for me to listen. But I can't deny all of the proof that has been presented to me. 

Robyn: I think that shows anybody can end up having this connection because it wasn't like, You had these, abilities or even inklings prior, this came out of.

Seemingly nowhere, right? And then you were able to develop that type of relationship and connection. , we [00:07:00] are all born with the ability. We just don't necessarily know it. And then it sometimes takes something.

 To open us up, and if it does, there is the ability, 

Paige: we've heard these stories 

Karen: so often that this incredible trauma often is the very thing that opens us up to the more of the understanding all that is.

And I can see like not having a spiritual faith could have made the trauma even more overwhelming if you weren't open to the possibility that he was still with you. So just for anyone listening who has experienced this that. Opening yourself up to that possibility that your loved ones are still there and to look for them, look for the signs that they might be offering.

You can totally transform your grief process. 

Paige: Completely. And I, I became a seeker immediately three weeks in hearing his voice. I jumped up. I'm seeking, I'm at the bookstores. I'm buying books on the afterlife. Some books literally jumped off the shelf. 

Robyn: And I'm sure that those three weeks in between. You found out until you had that [00:08:00] moment were the hardest three weeks of your 

Paige: life, I would imagine. Yes. It's just nonstop tears. And I remember one day I was laying on the floor. I turned to my wine, so I would sit on my front porch every night and I would blast.

the music from the funeral and I would drink my wine every night and I did that for a while. But then I knew that was not going to be my path, right? I enjoy a glass of wine, but that was not going to be my path to immerse myself in drugs or alcohol and hide the pain because the pain has It has to be released.

It has to be felt. It has to be processed. As my friend Tom says, we can't walk around it or over it or under it. We have to go through it and we have to feel all of those emotions. So while Bryan's passing did become the Katalyst for my spiritual journey, I still had to walk through my spiritual journey while I was seeking my spirituality and while I was seeking him.

And I was a seeker of everything, all things. I dabbled in at all. And every time spirit brought an opportunity to me, I said, yes. And some of it I kept in my toolbox and [00:09:00] some of it I did not keep in my toolbox, but that's how I built up my survival kit or my toolbox. I call it my spiritual toolbox for being here today, 15 years later.

Robyn: What did Bryan, saying mom, what did he say in those initial moments that you started to hear him? What did he want you to know? 

Paige: He started sending me ladybugs, but that was about nine months later.

I'll tell you the one story, I was having panic attacks every time I left the house. If you've ever dealt with that level of grief then you know what I'm talking about. Like I couldn't leave my house and I have lost babies, like I said, and I use the term lost loosely, Please don't anybody judge me. I know they're not lost. I know where they are. But it's just a phrase. And, anyhow, I finally had gone to the grocery store. I was like, I have to go to the grocery store. So I'm going to leave my home. And sure enough, I'm in the produce department and who do I see? But one of the mothers of one of Bryan's friends, 

and I hear spirits say, I started hearing these voices in my head early on. I hear spirits say, go talk to that woman. And I said, No, I'm in sweats. I [00:10:00] have no makeup on. I'm still crying every day, all day. I like, no, go talk to that woman. No, three times. It's always three times with me before I go.

Okay, spirit. Anyhow, third time. I said, fine. So I went over and I said, hi. And she said, Oh, paige. Hi, how are you? How's Bryan? And I just fell to my knees. And I said, Oh my God, how much . She doesn't know. How could she not know? I have tingles all through me right now. Like that moment will forever.

It was such a spirit moment because then she said, how can I help? Oh, my gosh, what can I do? How can I help? And I said, you don't happen to know of a good medium around here. Do you? We live in it. Boise, Idaho, You don't happen to know of a good medium, do you? Because I had been reading and studying and I had read George Anderson's book, Lessons from the Light, and I'm like, oh, look at all mediums.

Maybe they're real. And we'll get to Kat, who's the best of all. But anyhow she said as a matter of fact, I'm having a group circle at my house. Oh my God. And I have two spots left. Would you like to come? Oh my gosh. I took my best friend and we went to that reading it's [00:11:00] a man in Nampa, Idaho.

His name is David Akins. He's been on the radio around here or used to be. He doesn't much anymore. He's a pastor, but he is a well known kind of psychic medium. and so everybody's in a circle in a room and I know because I've had circles in my own home since then, he has not given the names of anybody in attendance.

There's no way he could have known who I was. And he just randomly chooses people. And when he got to me. You guys, he described first my grandfather bringing Bryan in. Described him perfectly to a T. The grandfather I was closest to. Anyhow, he described everything about Bryan and his passing, including the names of the two boys that were with him the night he died, which had never been in print.

so that launched me on signing up to work with David. I did psychic development classes. I learned about angels and guides like spirit guides. What is that? I was just such a newbie and I didn't know anything. And I got a reading from him once a month for a year. I did his classes. A group of us from his classes started our own development circle.

So we [00:12:00] were practicing mediumship and seeing auras and all of these things that were so new and exciting and fun, because I guess that's the thing is the spiritual journey can be fun. So while you're processing your grief here, you're learning and exploring all of these new things of crystals.

I always carry my crystals. And so yeah, it was just amazing. 

Kat B: when this was happening to you, were you really nervous? During the reading? as you experienced all these new things, were you just inspired or were you actually quite nervous by some of them, having never had experience of it in your everyday life before?

Paige: There was one time where I blindly sought a reading. This was after some time had gone by and I started wanting to know more about my own journey. Less about why Bryan, woe is me, why Bryan, and more about who am I, right? And what am I supposed to do now if I'm not Bryan's mom? And of course, Bryan's response to that.

Was you will always be my mom, but I used to say that out loud. I used to say if I'm not Bryan's mom, who am I like my complete identity was gone. Everything I had done was always about him and my step [00:13:00] kids too. I don't want to minimize my love for them, but Bryan was my only living blood. And so everything I did was organizing family vaKations.

We'd go see him. We would bring him to us, all of that. He had traveled Pakistan the summer before he died. And we could have easily lost him then, right? Like he was a go getter. He lived life hard and fast. He had big dreams. He was incredibly smart and ambitious. And I do believe now that there was that plan for us.

That this was a possibility that he would choose to take and that would launch me into my spiritual power. So that I could not only save myself, but do whatever I can to help raise the vibration of those who were in similar grief. but it took me a while to get there for sure. It doesn't happen like that.

I wouldn't say that anything made me nervous Kat, except one time I blindly bought a reading online from a woman she sent me back this written paper telling me what a bad person I was and how my soul was bad and blah, blah, blah.

And I just lost it because I was still very. [00:14:00] naive and insecure in the journey, And so I didn't have the strength to stand up to that. So thank the Lord for David Akins my psychic here. And he, which he never does this, but he took the time to write me. a long response to my plea about how that wasn't true.

And then I have a friend locally who helped me through that time. So that was the only time. And that's when I learned about discernment. So there's actually a chapter in my book about discernment because that woman, 

Robyn: then trying to get you To do other things with her, like what would be the point of 

Paige: I think had I responded, maybe she would have, but I didn't even, I was so completely floored by it. So we do have to have discernment and be careful because well and that brings up the whole topic of energy and allowing other people to, in intrude into your own energy space and owning what's yours and giving back what isn't yours, which Kat and I will be doing a lot of that type of work at our next retreat, I think.


Kat B: also shows that you've got to have people that have been recommended, that are renowned in the area, loKation, or certified. I've been blind [00:15:00] tested, I've been certified, I've been vetted, but maybe you want people who've been doing it a long time, they're not novices, or people that have just turned up and think they can be mediums.

a lot of people do one course and then think, oh I'm a medium, they don't realize that actually you're dealing with people's lives and these lives are valuable to them. And also, Certain people that you seek out, like your pastor, for instance, they've got really good credentials.

They understand grief. They may have done, like I have, several courses in grief. They may have sat on a board as an affiliated, affiliator, as we did for support groups, dealing with grief. And therefore, you become very eduKated and sensitive to the needs of the community, which can be really varied

Robyn: and that's really why we created Seeking Center, we know that is so important. 

Paige: And for those 

Karen: who are listening, if you ever do receive something like that is negative, or that is wanting money for another session. That is a red flag. Any of the healers or practitioners that we've talked to over the years, as [00:16:00] Robin said, we vet them all personally just for that reason, but anyone that is good at their job, they always come at it from a place of love and support and positivity.

That's What a true light worker is as somebody who can come at it from that place. So if you ever feel like you've gotten a reading like 

Robyn: that, 

Karen: don't pay attention to it. 

Kat B: Something there as well, Karen, because I've been at tail end of some awful stories where people have rocked up for readings and they've said, This person told me that my son is in the deep, darkest night of the soul.

And think to myself, The darkest night of the soul is a depression within oneself. It is not a place. It's not a purgatory. It's not a space that somebody can be. When we transition straight into the light. There is no intermediary. We are in a place far greater.

depth of love and illumination than we experience here in life. So there is no suffering for the person that's transitioned, except that they are still connected to the person who is living, who is [00:17:00] potentially suffering, and they feel for them. So You know, sometimes you come across these awful stories where people might have sat for three or four years before they've had the confidence, because they've been so bruised, to sit in front of somebody like myself who has done the work, to actually hear and to really understand the full process of what That means and to realize that actually the person's completely misunderstood what that terminology actually means they probably haven't done the background work or research needed to be able to support somebody and that is dangerous.

When you do this kind of work, it comes with a level of responsibility, and I think that's the other thing that Paige and I work very hard to bring awareness to people is that, go into these things absolutely with love and light. I am a big advoKate of it, although I never saw myself as being a medium I've ended up doing this work and moving my whole career in order to do what Spirit have requested of me.

So It isn't an easy [00:18:00] job. You are dealing with immense levels of grief every day. They affect your own energy. You have to be able to lift your vibration, recalibrate. And I think, if what Paige it is that upliftment. It is. bringing people back to a place of center. It's elevating them higher and it's transcending above, not so that you let go of the grief, but so that you can move through it as Paige mentioned, and actually work with it.

 You don't ever lose the love. for your loved one. And that is really what grief is, your connection and your love for that person. It's not really a negative thing.

it comes from a loving space. And I think it's very important, therefore, that you'll know, without a doubt, Karen, you're absolutely right when somebody isn't legitimate in the work that they do. And it might be through naivety as well. It might not actually be intentional. I want to say that as well.

They're just naive at what they're saying, it's not always that they're charlatans, sometimes it is just that they are less experienced than they believe themselves to be, so [00:19:00] the ego takes a place in some of these situations but what I will say is that it's really important that people will know because you'll feel the energetic connection to somebody.

You'll feel lovingly supported. 

Paige: So tell us how the two of 

Robyn: you met each 

Paige: other. 

Kat B: I'll lead on this one. for helping parents in the uk and I've been doing interviews like you guys are doing on podcasts today. Once a month. I had a guest speaker and I brought 'em from all different.

background spirituality, traditional forms of healing. And we just talk about different situations for the community that I was in. And, the person who was the guest speaker, how they would manage these situations, and one day a lady in my group, Lynn emailed me and she said, I've got this amazing friend, This lady in America that I've met, she's written a book called Choose to Believe.

Her name is Paige Lee. You must have her on. She is so inspirational. And so I took a leap of faith. I asked for a copy of the book. I read part of the book. I and I was like, Oh, this is really good stuff. This lady knows what she's talking about.

And so I invited Paige on [00:20:00] and I interviewed her two years before we would actually work together. And it was our only meeting. We met for an hour. And then fast forward two years and suddenly I bumped into Paige at the helping parents heal conference. And I happened to mention to her. that she's got a mentor in spirit, a lady called Sally, who had been Paige's first person that Paige had actually been on retreat from.

And I think that's a brilliant story that Paige should share of how she actually found this lady called Sally, because that himself was an amazing sign of synchronicity. But I happen to tap into this energy of Sally, and Sally shared with me that she was going to use me as a conduit and give me some information for Paige at the end of the retreat.

Now, at the end of this conference, it was my birthday, and so I was staying on an extra day to have a day where it was my birthday. And I was really fortunate, a lovely guy called, he's a dear friend of mine now, who I didn't really know that well at the time called Dr.

Jeff O'Driscoll came up to me and he said, can I take you for breakfast for your birthday? And I was able to go [00:21:00] for breakfast with Jeff and this lady approaches us partway through the breakfast.

She was very embarrassed about interrupting Jeff and I. And she said, I really want to compliment you on your mediumship. And I want to touch on something. I really love you to come and do a retreat at my space in St. Michael's in Maryland. And Jeff and like this because Jeff is also very artistic and he had just done a bronze of the Archangel Michael and he had just shown me this bronze on a photograph on his phone and we were laughing about it and I started telling a story about a St.

Mary connection. So when this girl comes over and talks about St. Michael and St. Mary, I was like,

Good morning, Happy birthday. I was paying attention. And when she started talking about retreats, suddenly the reminder of Sally came into my mind. I was like, It's not for me. It's for Paige. I need to pass it on to this lady called Paige Lee. And she's a grief counsellor and mentor and she runs retreats already. And she's got a [00:22:00] great success rate with them. I think this information is for her and she went no, you don't understand. I know that you're a transmedium.

I really want a transmedium to work at my house or to come visit my space. And so then I felt a bit awkward because I was like, oh, I don't 

Karen: know, 

Kat B: me dumped in on the scenario, didn't really know what Spirit's idea was. And it's really funny, isn't it? When you're in the corporate life, you've got this idea of a plan of a strategy of what your life's going to be and what you're going to do with your work.

And of course, spirit don't work like that. They grow you around and they change your direction. And so this was one of those amazing new terms that happened. So I contacted Paige and said, Listen, maybe we should work together. Maybe this is an opportunity to do something together. We've got different skill sets.

And that's, really that how transcending grief was born but I'll hand you over maybe to Paige to tell her side of the story but I think from my point of view what I would say is that spirit are amazing and this was one of those moments where you do take a leap we've known each other for two hours right and spirit now want us to do projects together and you [00:23:00] think in a normal world this is what spirituality to me is about you see in a normal world you'd go no Spiritual guys, you go, 

Karen: Oh, hell 

Robyn: yeah!

I'm there girlfriend! 

Karen: Yeah, we were 

Kat B: even laughing our names rhymed, Pat B and Paige Lee, you just can't make it up. 

Paige: I have to tell you the Sally story.

Sally Baldwin is in spirit now but I'll tell you the story first and I'll tell you who she is. So I'm at the Sun Valley, Idaho, Sun Valley Wellness Festival with my friend Jill, who's an aspiring psychic medium in her own right who is amazing. But she was just beginning. I had met her at the David Akins courses, She was part of that development circle that we were a part of. And so I went to support her and help her because she was setting up her first, booth of I'm doing readings and bless her heart. She's so much braver than I was then but she was amazing and it was a break or something and I said, I'm going to go wander the exhibit hall.

I'll be back in a little while. And she's okay. So I go in the big exhibit hall and by the way, that's a wonderful booth. Event for anybody who wants to come to Sun Valley, which is such a beautiful place. It's [00:24:00] held in the spring every year. It's a fantastic way to expose yourself to so many different spiritual tools like mediumship aura readings, all of those things.

 So I go in the exhibit hall and I'm wandering around I buy a destiny at your fingertips reading, which was amazing. And I'm just, checking out the jewelry. and then I'm walking by this one long aisle and I glanced at the end of the aisle and I happen to notice at the very end of that aisle is a booth with no decor, nothing on the table that I could see one man just standing there like that.

And I hear the voice and the voice says, go talk to that man. And I like, no, like boring. Like I'm here, this is my time to have fun. So I went off and I got a reflexology, on my feet and I hear spirit again, go talk to that man. And I'm like, no. So I go get my aura read and that's all fun.

And I'm just all about the lights and the dazzle. And third time again. When I hear the voice three times, I take action. That seems to be my pattern. [00:25:00] I hear it once. I notice I hear it twice. I'm like and third time I take action. So I'm sure spirits wanting me to take action the first time.

I'm a work in process. Anyhow. So I go the third time and I talked to the man and I said, hi. And I do notice that there's a banner on his table that I'd not seen before, but that's it. Nothing else. I said, Hi, he goes, Hi, I said who are you? What do you do? And he said my name is Steve Baldwin.

And my wife, Sally, and I hold retreats for mothers whose children have died, he said. And I said, Oh, I said my child died. He goes, I know, that's why you're here. And so he said, would you like to apply to attend? And I said, Yes, of course. Yes. Like, how amazing is this. And so he gives me the paperwork. It's a very long, extensive appliKation about the journey, your child, how they passed, where you're at spiritually, all of these things I later found out that almost everybody who knew about that retreat had come from a chat room, back when we had chat rooms the old style chat rooms.

I was never a part of any of that. I never joined a [00:26:00] grief group. I wasn't on Facebook at the time. I was the only one who found out about that retreat through spirits calling me to go to that booth. So I applied, of course, and I was one of Seven moms who were accepted. We were from all over the world. My friend, Lynn, that's where I met her that Kat mentioned my friend, Lynn, who was in her group with helping parents heal in the She was there, our friend from New Zealand. We were from all over the U S. Seven of us gathered in Sun Valley at this free retreat called Mom Child Reunion. And Sally had a wonderful benefactor who underwrote the entire retreat for everybody, including airfare from England and New Zealand and so that retreat I was accepted. Sally told me later. She's Bryan would not leave me alone until I finally I said your mom is in but she channeled each of the children She's a very amazing channeler. Very connected to spirit and this was her life's work.

And so she had done one retreat the year prior. We were her second. She had one more of the [00:27:00] year after ours. And then she passed away from a heart disease. And so it's been my mission to carry on her work. And so I knew for years that I would do my own version of mom, child reunion. So I got permission from her husband, Steve, to use the name.

And I do. still host annual mom child reunions, separate from transcending grief. we've had five, it's just a small group. It's usually eight to 11 people. It's very intimate. And I introduced them to all of the tools that Sally introduced us to pendulum crystals.

My first Reiki session was at that retreat. And the minute I went into that. Reiki space, as the person on the table, I found myself embedded in a clear quartz crystal, which is why I always carry clear quartz crystal. It is my crystal. 

That was my introduction to crystals spirit animals, grief recovery method, which I later became trained and certified in. So many things. So she opened our eyes, plus she channeled our children. But the difference was, Sally channels our [00:28:00] children at this soul level. It's not evidential mediumship in any way.

And so I know after we had our first session with her, because we each got a private reading, we all walked out of the room saying, That wasn't Bryan like that didn't sound like Bryan at all. And so it was my first awakening to this concept of Bryan as soul as a Bryan a spirit away from the validations of his life here, which we needed.

and wanted so desperately, And when we're early in our grief, we need that. and Kat is amazing because she can do Both right. She definitely does both. A lot of mediums are just evidential, which is great too. We need that in our lives, especially when we're in the first early years of grief.

So that was my introduction to Sally Baldwin. I did with the help of some of my Sun Valley moms, as we call ourselves I should add with their assistance and their help. We do host. the mom child reunion. Now, once a year, used to do them twice a year, but transcending grief a big part of my life now.

And Kat and I do two retreats a year with transcending grief. And then I host my little [00:29:00] special project in Idaho once a year. 

Kat B: You do get a lot of people that are very new to grief paige. You're very good with people in the early stages of grief and There is a difference, isn't there, between early grief and mature grief.

And I think you're very good at taking people and giving them the nurturing and the love in those early stages, which is really crucial. 

Paige: I appreciate that. And it's generally people within the first three years, which I consider early grief can be up to. There's no grief is the same, 

but I would for sure say up to five years, we can still label ourselves as an early grief. Many of us, I would say I was an early grief for seven years way back when, it's different for everybody. But yeah, I do love that. I have a lot of compassion and I have a lot of passion for the topic and for helping other people as I know Kat does.

And it's one of the reasons that we work so well together because we are both so passionate about our work. We are both so compassionate. We both really, as she said, can hold space as energy healers. Both of us we're really able to to nurture a crowd and we're always holding space for people.

I think we're a great team. Don't you, Kat? I just love working with you. 

Kat B: I also think what's really nice as well [00:30:00] is that we can take some traditional healing methods. So we're both trained in grief eduKation and counselling and I've got CBT psychotherapy and clinical hypnotherapy as well.

So we don't go in blind and we're both Reiki masters and. paiges of Crystal Healer and all sorts as well. she's studied numerology. She's also a good channeler, even though she's not a medium. So we've both got good connections with spirit in different ways. And I think sometimes the element that I maybe bring to the table is like taking people when we talk about transcending and going above is going into the possibility of things that they haven't considered, like sound healing with.

voice or vibrations or bringing through energetic communiKation from spirit that isn't necessarily words that holds you in a space that allows you to let go of all the thoughts that are irrational thoughts or irritating you or on your mind to put you and hold you into space in a different level of capacity and maybe then adding in trance and talks from spirit can be very inspirational and can help.

People see views and, I don't believe that I know [00:31:00] everything, as I know Paige believes the same as her skills. We're very skilled ladies. We've qualified and eduKated ourselves in many things. And yet I still believe that only spirit have the higher perspective. And so when we're holding court for somebody, it doesn't matter whether it's one person, six people, 25, 30, 40, 15 or more.

 Sometimes on, on the big sessions that I do online on Zoom, I can have up to 300, 400 people online at any one time. But what I think we're good at is allowing spirit to take the presence and they know what the feel or the touch is at any one point and what the need is in the room of not just.

An individual, but the whole group, 

And so I think Spirit's a very clever thing. They've got a great sense of humor. They know how to host And to make people smile. And I think, I've got a loud laugh. I'm very content, we talk about having a lot of fun, Paige and I have a lot of fun as well. And you think grief and fun don't go together.

They do in our house. And, I've got a a contagious laugh. we do laughter yoga, and all sorts of things [00:32:00] when we're on these retreats. We do sound baths, we do all sorts, and we have fun with it. And we say to people, don't take it too seriously. This is a moment of lightness to refresh your soul or to let go of certain things.

You might be having a difficult time. You can always take your worries and pick them back up if you want to at the end of the retreat, but. you might find that you they no longer belong to you in the same way that they did before. we're going to have a great time while we're together and you've got full access to the two of us as well.

we have meals together. We go for walks with people, both Paige and I as well, outside of retreats have taken people to our hometowns. Brought women to London, take them out round London for the day. And you hear these stories where people say, I will never be able to enjoy Christmas again.

I will never be able to live life again. I've lost my only son, my only child, through murder, suicide, whatever it is. And It's really interesting that I smile to myself because I know I'm a trust spirit and I know that they'll find a way because love will always find a way if people are open to receive and this lady happened to be hoping to receive and I smiled to her and I said you know one day you'll come back [00:33:00] to me and you'll say.

I've had the best Christmas of my life. I found joy again. And it was four years later, she'd been seven years into her grief, it was actually last Christmas, she contacted me and she said, I'm having the best Christmas of my life. And I've got joy again, and I'm happy. And then I'm like, job done. It's not by me by spirit.


Robyn: would you say it means to consciously grieve or consciously feel? 

Paige: just wanted to say just real quickly about that, that, it's always been the tagline or the main heading on my website finding joy after a traumatic loss requires conscious grieving. And I've always used those words, not that it's.

It's unique to me. I wasn't the first one to come up with the words, but it is a conscious effort. For me, it's learning how the body holds onto grief and learning how to move it through and around. 

And a lot of people say like it's a turnoff to them because finding joy, they can't comprehend finding joy. But every time I think about changing that, finding joy requires conscious grieving. I can't. Find [00:34:00] anything better that says more who I am and what I feel the journey is and how that piece of that journey could help people.

so I 

Kat B: think I've got to acknowledge there with you as well, Paige as with some of the people that I've worked with on grief, is that they've worked really hard at it. It isn't something that just comes and you get over. How many books have you read? How many courses have you been on?

and this is true of a lot of people that I meet in grief, that actually are successful about finding joy again, is they've worked very hard at it, they've eduKated themselves, and eduKation is key, I think. also there is signs and synchronicities, just like there have been in paiges, journey of being placed around the right people at the right time.

I think there is something to being open to receive. Sometimes grief requires you to go out of your comfort zone to actually try things that you might not have tried before. And I think that's important. But conscious grief to me is about connection. And it's not just about connection to the spirit world.

It's about connection to one another and finding that connection a deeper [00:35:00] way again. So grief to me is a symptom of love. If we didn't love, we wouldn't grieve, at least not deeply. So I think we've got to acknowledge first of all that grief is not the enemy. It is a loving process that is a symptom of love and deep love and emotion.

And it needs to have a freedom to move, to express itself, to feel. And we need to allow it space because I don't think grief just heals. Or, I think grief is healing. This is a contradiction in itself, isn't it? It's ironic, but it's I think grief is very healing because I think it brings to the surface not just the pain of the loss of the person it brings together with it in this kind of Vortex of energy if you like that comes to the surface this kind of volcano that erupts inside of you when you've got deep grief it's like a cleansing of many things at many levels energetically and it brings to the surface things that You thought you dealt with, maybe it's the, a past hurt or a past pain.

and other insecurities suddenly come to the surface. And that's why grief can be very overwhelming at time. It comes in waves. It's unpredictable. you [00:36:00] think you've got a grip of it, in life. We want to read the books, don't we? We want to go on the courses. We want to tick all the boxes and we want it to be beautifully packaged.

We've managed it well. Yay. Good on us. And then suddenly we think that's it. That's it. Managed to end, doesn't it? But grief doesn't work like that. It's wave comes in. And suddenly, just when you think you've got things together, erupts again. And that's certainly how it was with me.

I lost babies. I lost one in later stage of pregnancy. And I thought I dealt with it. I thought I dealt with it spiritually. I thought I dealt with it emotionally. I've done all the right things. Four years later, I go on a yoga retreat and a woman says to me, you're here to make amazing shift on this journey, but I know that you've lost a child.

And I know that's going to come back to the surface. And I said, sorry, I was no, I've dealt with this. I can tell you. Day one, the Monday. Crying like a baby at the end of the day. I was like, totally in shock. But, that's why movement is so important. Yoga, sound therapy, all these things.

Meditation. They shift and move energy. And I think grief is moving just more than [00:37:00] the physical loss of somebody. And grief can be even broader than that. It can be a loss of value in a relationship, loss of situation, the burning of a house. We've seen in Hawaii the awful devastation.

We see the wars in Ukraine and the Middle East. Yes, it can be the traumatic grief of somebody or a situation, but it can also be the breakdown of a marriage. It can be the loss of a friendship. It can be the breakup of a family. So we see all these things, but often in grief, other things come to the surface.

And as Queen Elizabeth II said in the UK, she said, grief is the price that we pay for love. So grief and the loss of loved one. It's a very challenging situation, so I'd say that complex, grief and conscious grieving it's having an awareness and being open, witnessing where you're at, how you're feeling, not being scared to do it on your own.

A lot of people don't want to burden people, actually share, find support structures. Everybody does it differently. Some people really develop well with traditional therapy techniques. Other people don't. Some people just can't manage that [00:38:00] at all, and they find it uncomfortable that person hasn't lost somebody.

Their loss is almost a bit selfish. that person hasn't lost a child like me. They can't possibly hold space for me because they haven't got a clue what that feels like. Again, like Paige is saying don't be me up for this. There are instances where people have and hold space, but I hear a lot of different stories.

And I think we've got to acknowledge that everybody's journey is individual and we've got to be patient with it. And we've got to look at and witness that person's grief. The best thing that you can do consciously is to hold space for somebody and to witness it. They also have to witness their own grief and acknowledge it, not to hide from it or to run from it.

and then you may do a full review of your life. It might give you new purpose, like it did to paige. It might make you reassess every element. Your priorities completely change. 

Profound things can happen when you lose somebody, and so conscious grieving, it's very broad I would say And that's why when Paige says, I've got a toolbox and I'll share with you that toolbox, delve into the [00:39:00] toolbox. You've got to find the right spiritual tool for you. 

Paige: I think the key and I think what Kat and I really if I had to say in a nutshell what it is that we do and what I've always been about since I've taken on this journey of trying to help other people through their grief is helping them bridge that gap from the physical loss to embracing the concept of their loved one in spirit and walking that bridge and crossing that gap is not something that most of us can do in the first year or two or even three of grief, we might read the books, we might listen to the podcast, we might, take the classes, but we're not fully embracing and living that truth.

And when we get to the point where we're willing to let go, of the need for their physical body. When we're willing to let go of the shame, the blame, the anger, the fear, the guilt over their passing, we have to release all of those things. And this is what Sally Baldwin told me that I repeat to everybody, when we're willing to like I say , cross that bridge, close that gap.

And when we're [00:40:00] willing See them as they are now in spirit without their physical body and those physical chains, if you will, that keep them tethered to this physical life as we remember them when we're willing to let go of that and see them as they are now, then That's where the healing is. And that's what Kat and I do.

She does it so beautifully in so many ways. And I do what I can to try to help people see the truth of that, the connection is real, that life continues, that our loved one is exactly. As they were here, they just have shed their physical body and everything else remains the same, And would you say, Kat, their personality, the soul still lives on.

And so why would we not embrace that? Why would we not reach for that? Because that's what we have. It could 

Kat B: also be about the visioning out of their future, because as a mother that was about to give birth to a child, or a mum who's got a 21 year old who suddenly then is murdered, lose your vision

it's like you said, Paige who am I if I'm not his mother? And he says, you'll always be my mother. I [00:41:00] think sometimes the thing that Paige and I can help with as well is this re evaluation of who we are now and who we're going to be and how we can get there. we don't do the work for you, but we can pinpoint you in the right direction or we can give you guidance We're being channeled to say or feel in that moment. And sometimes that can be a really big shift for somebody, 

Robyn: was going to say too, what you're both talking about, when you develop that relationship and you are at that place to be open and accepting of it. Don't you feel like you get to know that person we're talking about people on the other side that have deceased you get to know them even better on a different level 

Paige: yeah. And I also have got to know a little bit my baby girl who was still born in 1989. And for the first time after all these years, I was able to see that she was going to be just like me. And that brought me such joy and happiness to know that , she was quirky and funny and silly and, just like a little sKattered like I am.

so there's so much healing in that there's so [00:42:00] much healing. Yeah. And I often say I'm closer to Bryan now than I was when he was here, and I don't mean that in the way some people might decipher that, but I talk to him all the time, and I'm not crazy like he is so present in my life, and when he was in physical, I'd be lucky if he'd call me once a week but now we talk every day.

And it's not talking like we're talking now, of course, but it's mental communiKation. Occasionally, it's more than that. I've heard his voice out loud. I've heard other spirits voice out loud. I almost saw Bryan one time he almost presented to me with my eyes. I could see the dimension parting or whatever the right words are Kat.

But I could see that happening in front of my very eyes and then somehow I just broke it or the time wasn't right. But I know that day will come. And in the meantime, I've learned to trust the mental communiKation. And I'm willing to embrace him as he is now. Oh, and it goes 

Robyn: to that soul level that you talked about that came through with that woman, Sally, right?

Sally Baldwin brought that to you. you get to know what they really are. Are [00:43:00] about both in this lifetime and other lifetimes and obviously They're presenting that to you and communiKating that to you now 

Kat B: We had an amazing moment with Sally as well, we were sat on a sofa and one day this wave of energy came at us and I burst out crying, so did Paige at the same time.

And we looked at each other and went, Sally's here! It was a whole recognition! It was almost as if to gift us with good luck, girls. 

Paige: Good luck! She did that because it was Kat's idea to dediKate our first retreat together this past June to Sally.

So that's why Kat she was thanking you really for that because we dediKated the entire retreat to her. I call that my Bryan wave when Bryan does that spirit enters through my crown and they absolutely. Absolutely run through my entire body all the way down my arms through my fingertips, my feet, legs through my feet.

Those don't happen all the time for me.

They're beautiful moments when things like that happen. 

Robyn: about that transcending I know you offer several a year.

You just started the registration. I know these things can go quickly for the U. S. one in the summer, and you need to talk a little bit [00:44:00] about that, 

Kat B: . , who am I really? Biggest spiritual question that you're ever going to ask, And that's really part of the retreat work that Paige and I do we're all about the I am and connecting with that I am and finding out who I am, who I could be, how I can evolve to a higher level of spirituality and find that God force within, or that divinit within it is really a biggie. 

Robyn: Would you suggest would be ready for that type of retreat if they're going through a certain type 

Kat B: of grief? We get a broad level.

Some people are mature in grief and some people are new in grief, and that's what's really beautiful. We put everybody together in one sort of soup pot, if you will. Because I think people that are new in grief can learn from those that are more mature in it. And also they make friendships in their own time.

So we've taken Sally's sort of proposal that she gave to Paige and that Paige carried forward in that this is about connecting the living, it's about giving you a support structure, a group of people that will maybe become your new friends or kind of part of your own sort of chosen family in a way.

People make really strong [00:45:00] connections in these experiences. That's what it's all about really. And so they're not only connecting themselves, connecting to the loved one, they're connecting to the other people around them. So we take Paige's sort of lead in terms of grief management and eduKation.

She's really the expert on that. And she does a really great. bit of holding space and helping people identify where they're at and what's going on with them. We let them tell their stories. So we've got a big fire pit. We sit around and they tell and share who they are, what's brought them here, what they're expecting, what they're seeking.

We move to the spirit and the feeling that happens within these spaces. Also prior to it. Spirit channel a lot to Paige and I. Paige did some amazing channelings even before we'd even met. She had got lots of channelings from Spirit that actually became very relevant when we first started to talk about retreats and they became part of the fabric of retreats.

And then we realized that spirit had been training us on this maybe four years prior to us actually meeting. And so we had a lot of things that just merged together naturally and then we realized that what we thought [00:46:00] this I Am thing was about was actually not what it's about at all.

This transcendence part of our I Am, this divinity within each one of us is even more powerful. So we cover a lot of things. We do meditation, we do walks in I do demonstrations of mediumship and transmedi mediumship. Paige did some incredible things. I don't know if you want to share what you did, Paige, 

Paige: meditation is a big tool for me. So we did an amazing, beautiful very enlightening silent meditation at the labyrinth which is in the beautiful woods of Connecticut. And then we came back and we did some channeled writing from that. And my gosh, the messages that came through for people We're so beautiful. And just beyond my wildest dream of what I could have hoped for them to experience from that, And then we do some movement stuff. We're going to do more of that at the next retreat, more moving grief through our body also vocally moving grief through vocally through sound with both I'm training in that Kat.

already obviously a sound healer with her voice. She's amazing. We're going to do some Reiki. And a lot of it's about just finding your people as Kats. [00:47:00] And finding your tribe, because we have to have those people that we walk the journey with, that we can talk to about these things, because for many of us, our spouses and our other family members, they might listen, they might not, many relationships are lost when we immerse ourself in a spiritual journey and start sharing and not everything needs to be shared.

But when we do share, we would like to share with people that understand and support, what's happening in our lives. And so we do it for that reason as well. There's work to be done at these retreats, but there's also a lot of light moments and fun moments and laughter.

And it's just an amazing experience for people that want to transcend their grief. And when we say transcend our grief, there's a long description of it on our website. but . It's about letting go of our pain, but we're not letting go of our loved one and that's really the key.

I think for me and what I teach people is being willing to let go of the pain because we have the misconception that it's our pain that. is the tether to our loved one. If we let go of our pain, we are abandoning them. And that is so far from the [00:48:00] truth. It's the exact opposite of that. When we let go of our pain and we can transcend beyond those physical limitations that we have and we meet them in spirit and we expand and grow and learn and trust and believe in the connections that are happening.

That's transcendence. That is how we find joy on the journey and we learn that we can still live a life of hope and joy and compassion and love. I 

Kat B: think it's about finding as well that the spirit can be a conduit through somebody that you meet. So a member of that new tribe might say something very profound to you and you think, God, that's come from the spirit of my loved one, because it's touches my soul in some way.

It really resonates with me. So we get these goosebump moments, but we have a lot of laughter. The kids of the spirit world in particular are very funny. And some of the trans things that we did. one of the moments that made me laugh the most, there was one point where, people think that when you're in trance, you're completely out of it. There is part of me that's listening and aware of what's going on with spirit. I'm just giving them over more control.

And some of the kids, it's not that they take liberties with me, but they like to [00:49:00] laugh. And there was one lady, her son went for it. . And I was laughing so deeply, I nearly came out of trance, because I could hear the conversations that were going on about, go on, do it, don't dare you, do it.

And then so suddenly, he starts saying about very intimate moments. I don't think the lady concerned will mind, because I won't mention her name, but. she'd got to a certain age and she started shaving arms because her arms had been getting hairy. And so her son Spirit started laughing about this new razor that she'd bought and how sometimes she misses certain bits and she hadn't been shaving it evenly.

And he was Really ripping the shit outta her, really. And if you don't mind me swearing, he was literally going for it. And my English nurse as well was like, oh my God, because I'm blindfolded. I don't have a clue who's sat in the chair. Paige puts the person in the chair and Paige answers the yes or no for me.

So I don't have a clue who's in the chair. All I was thinking is, whoever's mother this is going to crucify me

 But we were, the laughter. She was a really good sport once she paid. She [00:50:00] was laughing her head off. I was laughing my head off. It nearly pulled me out of trance.

And the spirit world were laughing. They thought it was hilarious. So that's really cool. And then the sound healing isn't just traditional sound healing with sound bowls. I go into trance, the angelic realm start to blend, these frequencies and vibrations come out. Some of them are sonic sounds that we can't hear with the human ear and some are sounds that we can hear.

 I'm a great believer that sound is the predominant force of nature actually more than light. I believe it's a primordial state that, they say, don't they, in the beginning was the word and the word may potentially have been om, but the sound when it vibrates, the spirit will make frequencies that again, bring people into resonance and pitch in the room.

So it can be fairly emotionally comforting, but , it is a bit weird. And so you have to be prepared to receive or go out of your comfort zone in a certain way. We do laughter yoga, we do ecstatic dance, 

Paige: we do 

Kat B: all sorts of things and we let spirit lead, but what I will say that's really interesting as well is the spirit world enjoyed it as well and how do I know that something really amazing [00:51:00] happened at the end of the last retreat we've been singing this.

Their names in prayer, which is something you do on All Hallows Day, Halloween, in traditional Christian faith. You would actually sing their name or say their name in prayer. And I'd been at this amazing event with some really key people in the UK and Where a man had sung all the names of the dead in prayer.

And so I thought it'd be a really nice way to incorporate this in the retreat to give thanks for them being here to acknowledge them and change their vibration, not just our own. And a day later, one of the ladies that was on the retreat who'd also got the last reading in that Transend, and then her son was brilliant, and he contacted a medium.

And he told this medium to contact this lady and who he knew nothing about this retreat. He didn't know she'd been on a retreat and knew nothing about it, didn't know anything about the singing. And he records this recording for her that he'd done in meditation from her son with all this information about the retreat.

And the young boy is basically saying. Loved it when I heard my name being sang in [00:52:00] Tram, It was like being in an echo chamber, he says. And we were all laughing and like excited and then suddenly she realizes that the reading is for me. It's not for her. It's for me.

And this, always talking about the work that Paige and I had done. And so she contacts me and sends me this recording at which point I'm like, Oh my gosh, I got to meet this gentleman who I've never met before. So I contact this guy in Texas and I said, you sent this lady a recording. I just wanted to meet you.

I understand you have wife and child in spirit. And he said, I do. And I said I want to thank you for the reading that you did for me because I cried when I got the thank you and I heard him say, thank you so much for this retreat. It made me feel very emotional and to realize that it means as much to the dead as it does to the living is really key, I think.

And so I got really emotional. So I then brought through his wife and child for him, who he. hadn't heard from in some time. So it was a lovely little bow tie. It was a lovely little ending.

So you get these moments and [00:53:00] they really move your own soul. It's that's what working with spirit is about. 

Karen: So inspiring what you just shared with us. And it just reminds us that we all have our role to play, don't we? and that if we listen, and Paige, I just have to say to you, thank goodness you listened to that voice in your head that day that told you to go to that table, because I think all of us relate to that and being in those environments where it's I'm not going to do that.

But look at the journey that it took you on. And look how it brought you together with Kat and how many people that you are going to continue to help as a result of listening, to that. So thank 

Paige: you that voice. like it's so easy to just say, Oh, I just imagined that.

That's my imagination, but it is not your imagination. We 

Kat B: do have places left on the retreat for 2024. So people do want to come along or get information about it. They can either www.paigewlee .com or come to or email me at 

we will try to get back to you as quickly as we can. Please give us 48 hours. Sometimes we do get [00:54:00] overloaded with emails. we'd love to see you. And we do have a Facebook paige, transcending Grief. There will be a website in the new year that we're currently working on. So things are evolving for us as they are for you, and I'm sure that if people get lost and they can't find us, they can come to Seeking Center and you'll forward them on.

One way or another, they'll find us if they're meant to be with us. 

Robyn: yes, and we will have links in our show notes with this podcast episode. And you can also find Paige's book, Choose to Believe, on her website as well. And you can find out more about working with Kat at her website and Paige as well outside of the retreat too.

We are so grateful for all that you've shared and all that you both are doing and using your life right now and your soul. We are so deeply grateful. Thank you for sharing all of this. I'm sure so many people have been lit up and are thinking about grief differently, their souls differently, and you've just given so much hope to many people who need it.


Paige: thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity 

Transcending Grief: Letting Go of the Pain + Finding Joy Again