Proving the Power of Mediumship to Heal Grief - Episode 78

How do science and spirituality work together in healing through grief and trauma?

Dr. Lenore Matthew is normalizing, destigmatizing, and evidencing the clinical viability of mediumship and intuition for healing through trauma and grief.

She is a Doctor of Social Work with training as a researcher and practitioner, as well as clinical expertise in evidence-based practice with trauma and grief.

When Lenore’s late husband suddenly passed away her ability of psychic mediumship opened up. And life as she knew it changed forever. Not only was she thrust into the deepest pain she’d ever known, she also began receiving messages, signs, and insights from a dimension that I never had a reason to believe existed. Lenore was called to become a trained evidential psychic medium.

Today she melds scientific training as a researcher and a practitioner, with her intuitive abilities and experiences. She says mediumship and other intuitive practices saved her life and opened her up to her life’s purpose.

She aims to bring mediumship and other intuitive practices into the clinical mental health world, and show through the data and lived experiences just how transformational working with intuitive gifts, Spirit, and the soul is. We can’t wait to discuss her research with all of you!

Lenore also strives to help as many people as possible recognize their own innate intuitive abilities for their own well-being.

She says, “Mediumship is mental health. Intuition is mental health. Spirituality is mental health.”

MORE FROM DR. LENORE MATTHEW

• You can find out more about Dr. Lenore Matthew’s work, upcoming events and resources that she recommends at drlenorematthew.com.  In addition, you can check out her articles and blog.
• You can also follow her on instagram @drlenorematthew

Visit theseekingcenter.com for more from Robyn + Karen, plus mega inspo -- and the best wellness + spiritual practitioners, products and experiences on the planet!

You can also follow Seeking Center on Instagram @theseekingcenter

Transcript

Robyn: [00:00:00] I'm Robyn Miller Brecker, 

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Robyn: How do science and spirituality work together in healing through grief and trauma? Dr. Lenore Matthew is normalizing, destigmatizing, and evidencing the clinical viability of mediumship and intuition for healing through trauma and grief.

She's a doctor of [00:01:00] social work with training as a researcher and practitioner, as well as clinical expertise in evidence-based practice with Trauma and grief. When Lenore's late husband suddenly passed away, her ability of psychic mediumship opened up and life as she knew it changed forever.

Not only was she thrust into the deepest pain she'd ever known, she also began receiving messages, signs and insights from a dimension that she had never had a reason to believe existed. Lenore was called to become a trained, evidential psychic medium.

Today, she melds scientific training as a researcher and a practitioner with her intuitive abilities and experiences. She says mediumship and other intuitive practices saved her life and opened her up to her life's purpose.

She aims to bring mediumship and other intuitive practices into the clinical mental health world and show through the data and lived experiences just how transformational working with intuitive gifts, spirit and the soul is. We can't wait [00:02:00] to discuss her research with all of you. Lenore also strives to help as many people as possible.

recognize their own innate intuitive abilities for their own wellbeing. She says, mediumship is mental health. Intuition is mental health, spirituality is mental health. We have so much to cover. Let's get talking. Hi Lenore. 

Karen: No, 

Lenore: so good to see you. Hello ladies. Thank you so much for having me. It is an honor.

Robyn: Oh, it is an honor to be with you and talk about all of this work and your journey to getting to this work. So let's start with how did these intuitive abilities come into your life? What happened? 

Lenore: Okay. Starting in the beginning, going back to 2020, really? 2019 actually.

So my late husband, Bruno, passed away unexpectedly. He ended his own life without warning in March of 2020. The nights after he passed. So he passed in the morning and later on that night was the first experience that I had when he came to me quite viscerally through [00:03:00] a mix of clairvoyant. So intuitive seeing Clair sentience.

Feeling so I could feel him all around me, inside me. His emotions, his physical body, clear cognizance, which is an innate knowing, and I knew exactly what it was through his message that he was sharing. And then also clear Gustine and Claire alience smelling and tasting things intuitively and Claire audience hearing.

So it was this multi-level, multi-sensory, intuitive experience that he gave me. And what it was long story short we'd never talked about passing before. we were in our mid thirties when he crossed, when he ended his life. I thought, of course we had decades before we even needed to consider it.

Life was really just getting good and juicy. And we were, financially stable for the first time after being in grad school for a long time. And we were expats living abroad, and we had an amazing group of friends. And we traveled every weekend and. we were from two different countries and we had been long distance for quite some time before getting married.

We were together for 13 years and we were at a place where life was [00:04:00] really stable and really burgeoning and blossoming on paper. Everything looked great and I took it as, these are the boxes that we're told to check by the time we're in our thirties. Good job, stable marriage, even some extras on life, like getting to live abroad.

And I didn't see, and I didn't wanna see really, and he didn't let me see that there was immense pain that he was hiding, which is really quite common as I've gotten to learn more and more about suicide loss. It's so common, especially among men. They don't let us see what they're experiencing. He passed unexpectedly, March 5th, 2020, in the mid-morning.

That night, I was in a hotel room with our closest friends who were with me when he passed, and we were all crammed into a hotel room around the corner from the police station, and all of a sudden, in the middle of the night, the window slammed open. It was on almost like a bookend type shape of the window.

It slammed open. There were dogs in the street barking below, but we had just moved to Barcelona and we're in the middle of downtown Barcelona where dogs come from in the middle of the street in Barcelona. I have no [00:05:00] idea. Dogs are barking, and all of a sudden I'm just overcome with this energy.

That is Bruno, that is my husband. And he comes into my body and I can feel him work telepathic. Now, I understand this telepathically communicating in my research, I've heard it called from different people that I've spoken with that have had similar experiences as me. almost like a call and receive, where it's like talking to each other one-on-one.

 They're saying something and we know what they're saying and we're responding, but we're not in control of it. But he's giving me this message and I'm also seeing things and hearing things and smelling different things. And he comes into my body and what I know that he's saying, he holds me and I can feel him.

I can feel him angry with himself. I can feel he was as shocked as we were. And then he makes my mind go blank. And all of a sudden I'm on the bank of a river and it's this purplish brown body of water. I recognize it immediately. It's the river from his hometown in his home country. It was a place that brought him a lot of happiness.

And I look around and I'm asking him, and I'm like, Bruno, tell me. I don't understand, but I believe it's you. I know it's, you. Keep showing me. He's calming me [00:06:00] down into this experience. And he tells me to look around. I look around, I see friends that are dressed down like flip flops in soccer jerseys.

He's from Argentina, so everyone's in a soccer jersey in football. And then I smell barbecue. I hear music, and I just know the clear cognizance. I know what he's telling me is this is where he wants his celebration of life to be. Six weeks later. I saw my first medium for the first time, and it was very early on in my grief, but these experiences from Bruno kept coming multiple times a day.

And within a month of him passing from other people in spirit who I didn't actually know in the physical world, but I knew their loved ones who were here. And I would write messages from the people who had come to me from the other side, and they were validated every time. minute new details, there's no way that I would've known.

So in six weeks I saw my first medium and the very first, and he knew nothing about me. I wasn't online at this point. I didn't even have my personal social media up. I had taken it down 'cause I was so grief stricken and that medium told me. Very quickly, he brought in my husband and he said, you have a partner on the other side?

I said, yes. [00:07:00] And this is completely against all of my belief systems. I'm a data scientist my career before, and we can get into that of what life was before. But seeing mediums was not on my radar. This is not something that was my reality. But these things kept happening to me.

It's almost, I wanted validation. And that medium very quickly identified Bruno. And then he very quickly recounted the exact same scene that no one knew except for me. And he said, you understand these details and that Bruno wants this as a celebration of life? And I said, yes. So that's how it began. Wow.

Robyn: Wow. 

Karen: So let's talk about that for a second too. So the listeners here understand why this was such a major transformation in your life. Talk a little bit about your life prior to that as a data scientist, and why this is such an extreme change of your belief system and challenge to your belief 

Lenore: system.

Yeah. covered in goosebumps, as you say, that one of those confirmations. So I'm a doctor of social work and I will say social work is a very, empathic and empathetic field. We're helping fields like social work, [00:08:00] nursing therapeutic fields. We tend to be people who are very sensitive, both sensitive to other people, but also just sensitive in general to energies.

I never knew that before. I thought I was just a pretty good social worker because I could kinda feel into things about people without them telling me explicitly. And I knew things about people when I was teaching at the university. I was getting my doctorate. I just knew things about my students, just about their emotional body that I had no idea where it came from.

But again, I thought I was just doing my job. It never occurred to me that this isn't how everyone lives. So I was in graduate school with Bruno. I took a position with the United Nations. So I used to work in the policy world and I'd actually worked with the un. For several years during my doctorate and before that with international non-for-profits.

So I lived all over the world doing evaluations, which is essentially looking at an intervention, be it a policy or program, and how does it affect people's wellbeing. So I've always been interested in wellbeing, but very much focused on what does the evidence say with a particular way in which we're affecting human wellbeing.

So essentially my life was like, show me the data, at least my professional life, show me the data, show me the [00:09:00] evidence if you want me to believe something. And I was at the UN at the headquarters working for a evaluation unit department, and my identity at that point of my life was so entrenched in my professional self.

I was very proud and had a lot of stock in who I was professionally. And to some extent there's a lot of, especially as women we're expected to really set forth who we are to be taken seriously. And it's I'm a doctor and I have this high profile job and take me seriously because of this.

And then Bruno passes in a very stigmatized way. And then on top of that, all of a sudden I'm hearing from the spirit world, which is like totally out of the realm of norm and there are multiple questions of mental health woven in through this experience being both a social worker and then also because he died by suicide.

And so my life was completely turned upside down and now it's been a several years and working very diligently through the questions of identity and belief and self-worth that have come up. But really that kind of normalcy that I adhered to before of who I am and very proud of it.

[00:10:00] That's a part of who I am, but it's not everything. By releasing some of the stronghold on that. I've really come into a place where it's like you don't have to be either or you don't have to be a scientist and believe in data or be someone who's spiritual and intuitive As human beings, we can be all of these things and we really are.

Oh, 

Robyn: that is so true. And I feel like your story and you being you is gonna help change a lot of this in the world as we go forward. I really believe that because I think that things have been more black and white until now, and so you and Bruno are a part of changing that, and you've already started, to marry these worlds.

And we are so grateful because we know part of our mission and having had different experiences that have brought us to where we are. Is about normalizing all of this and we don't have your background with data. So to have that it does help de-stigmatize, it does help [00:11:00] legitimize a lot of this. So 2020, when we all think about it, is not very long ago.

 And obviously was a year that changed everything for everyone on every level in different ways. So I wanna go back to that first medium meeting, how did you even find that medium? Because Karen and I know in our own lives and what we do now is really find trusted people.

Not every medium Is good at what they do, just like at any job. So what led you to that particular 

Lenore: medium? That's a good question. It's such a complicated process Finding a medium, but also finding a therapist, 

But I think medium, especially because with therapists we have safeguards in place, we have credentials, we have psychology Today, which is this massive database that tells you what specialization someone has what's their background, what are their licensure.

But in terms of finding the medium that I found, so I was very vocal from the day that it started with Bruno and it was almost like him speaking through me, but I was very vocal about what was happening in my [00:12:00] experiences. Also being a researcher, I documented everything. Just Ridiculous documentation.

I made up matrices and charts. So I documented what happened when daytime, objectively what happened. Subjectively, how I felt, who was with me, if anyone, just everything. Because two things I knew. One is I knew that I would need this because I knew that it would play a role in Bruno's and my experience, and I knew it wasn't going to end with just him and me, but then the other level is I wanted to see it so that I believed it because there were these constant questions of am I, crazy?

Am I going nuts? So I would document everything and I was very vocal with the people that I loved and trusted. My circle got quite small, is what that's happens when we go through a loss and traumatic loss. Yes. We've all gone through grief and a traumatic loss, and the people that we hold close gets that group gets smaller and smaller because not everyone understands.

But very vocal with, my family, my immediate family, my close friends who are also getting signs from Bruno, some of his close friends. And so we would exchange our stories. I think mine were the most visceral because [00:13:00] just being his wife, but also being highly sensitive. But with a friend of mine who is also a friend of Bruno's.

She works in the corporate world, but she's also highly intuitive and she suggested to me a couple weeks after he passed, And we were talking about these experiences. She said, have you ever thought about talking to a medium? And I was like what's a medium? I thought, it was like a psychic, I don't know.

And now I know there's a difference. A psychic connects human to human medium speaks human to human and with the spirit world. I didn't know there was a distinction. And of course when I was young, I was always into, and now I remember I was into the spirit world. I read books and watched this TV show in the nineties called Are You Afraid Of the Dark?

These things that those of us who are quite intuitive now as adults, we recognize these little hints and glimmers of it as children. But I didn't really recall that anyway, so I felt into it and she suggested a couple famous mediums and me being totally naive to this, she was suggesting I read their books and me being very bold and very naive, I went onto their websites assuming I could just book a reading.

Little did I know very famous celebrity mediums are seven, 10 years out, if at all. And most of them don't actually do readings anymore. So I was, totally [00:14:00] Oblivious to the realities of finding a medium. But on the website of one of the mediums that I was looking at, who's very well known, he listed mediums that he recommended. And so I asked Bruno, I really put it, and I didn't fully believe in this, even though these experiences are happening to me and I can feel, or I think I feel my husband around. But I asked Bruno, I said, just guide me and show me. And he guided me to one of the mediums on that list who then became a mentor of mine, a good friend.

And I went to see him several times. I actually trained under him as well. But it was really long-winded way of saying it was by asking my husband to guide me, and then trusting it. Wow.

Karen: Bruno is having such a strong role on this your path, And so is now guiding you really from the other side. 

Robyn: And this might sound like a weird question, but do you talk about 

Karen: that? Have you had a conversation with him about his role in all of this and the work that you're 

Lenore: doing?

Absolutely. And I won't have the concrete, answers and resolution until eventually I'm on the other side. But I feel him constantly with me. He's constantly sending, we have very specific [00:15:00] numbers. I see them at 50, 67 more times a day. Very specific signs. I dream of him, I meditate with him.

He is given me information in meditations that things that have actually come true. Guidance that I just know in my gut. But I feel. We talk about things like soul contracts and soul plans, and I don't know that I've articulated that to myself to fully satiate my curiosity.

However, I know that when Bruno comes close, now he is big and expansive and joyful. And I know I'm very lucky in that a lot of my good friends now are very trusted mediums, and when they pull him through, they can also get pieces of information that I can validate and they feel the same thing with him.

So that's a further validation, but I feel that Bruno, and actually I don't feel I know this with all of my gut, Bruno and I have opened up something for each other that we would never have been able to do if he were in the physical still. I know because I speak very openly about his experience and his truth, and by doing so, I know that he has found a peace and healing that he wasn't able to find.

Some of the work that I do is [00:16:00] around childhood trauma, which is what he endured and that preceded his passing and contributed to why he ended his life. He never sought help for it while he was here. He never talked about it. as his wife, I knew in my gut something wasn't right, but I never could have imagined the extent of it, the first eight months or so of his signs weren't just him guiding me.

And I wasn't even, I didn't even grief in the first year. I was so in shock. Grief wasn't even on my radar. It was really survival in shock. But through his signs, he led me to the objective information so that I could piece together why he passed. And I uncovered that he was very horrifically abused as a child.

 By bringing that forward and bringing it forward to the people that love him, that he carried so much shame around it, especially as a man and in his culture as well, being a Latino man that he felt like he couldn't talk about it. And looking back, I do wish more than anything that I had trusted further my intuition, although I don't look back and wish that things have been different.

I know that things happen as they happen and I can't undo the past. But I know going forward and after I uncovered what I did and put to rest what [00:17:00] my search for, why. I just almost made like a pact with myself. And really, I feel like it was him making a pact with myself through me, that I would never distrust my intuition and my gut and what I know in my body.

And I know that he did that while he was physically here. And I know I did that to some extent because I didn't wanna rock the boat when we were physically married, he'll always be my husband in, in a spiritual and soulful regard.

And so I feel like I helped Bruno heal in a way that maybe wouldn't have been able to be healed if I hadn't opened up to my intuition. And that was really the first year. And then since then, he's really helped me come into a space where I'm able to step into this intuitive world with confidence, and I bring it to the grief world.

I bring it to the childhood trauma world. I bring it to the curiosity of living a soulful life world, and I bring it to my own self, which keeps both our relationship alive and beautiful and expanding. But it also gives me so much reason and purpose in life, and just, I'm excited to be alive.

And it's, as those of us who've gone through [00:18:00] acute loss know that's a big thing to ask for and to really step into a life that you deem worth living is, it's invaluable. And 

Karen: just in thinking about what you're saying too, it feels like now his role is also not only helping himself heal and you heal, but how many other people now are healing because of the work that you're doing that has been inspired by him.

So that in itself is a beautiful way to be able to tell your story and to be able to help others who need so much help. 

Lenore: Thank you. I'll say one thing to that end too if I can, just adding in the spiritual world, again, those of us who've lost someone in very traumatic means, and especially when someone has ended their life, I am always hyper conscious to never romanticize it because there's nothing romantic about it, as we know, who've lived through the loss of this.

And also as someone who lived through the pain before that end of life and there's nothing romantic about it. But speaking with, speaking with Bruno, as he's, let me feel and I trust it just because so many other things have been validated. So by extension I [00:19:00] validate this.

One thing he let me feel and experience in a meditation was we have to heal our pain, whether it's on this side or the other side, and there's no escaping 

it. And another layer to that. Not only do we have to heal and face what we've endured, but in many ways it's actually advantageous and even more beautiful if we do it on this side because it's on this side that we can change our circumstances.

It's on this side that we can , more easily at least touch other human beings and affect the environment around us, the systems around us, the infrastructure around us. So while his work is in part being done by me, I know I also have my own soul path.

And I don't know if Bruno, will come back in another life and somehow address this. he has his own work while I have mine. Then we have our collective work as well. But that was something that I held so close to me that he shared with me in that first year of grief, because of course, as a young widow, And of course as a survivor of suicide loss, there are moments where we don't wanna be here.

And I held it so close of I have to be because I have to deal with this [00:20:00] somewhere and I'd much rather do it in this body. 

Robyn: I'm so glad you're bringing that up. And it also reminds me to talk about grief in general and so much of your work, with people who have had loss and other forms of trauma and so forth and finding that healing through mediumship and intuitive modalities.

However, it doesn't mean you don't feel, to your point you don't wanna romanticize it 'cause it's. It's not fun. It can be completely, illuminating and life transforming, but it's not fun. But no one's saying that you're not gonna feel, even if you recognize all of these things, you still go through the motions in this human body, in this human experience, you feel.

Lenore: And that's the journey. Absolutely. and confronting in, some ways, I felt like it was a surrender to the pain. That's how you move through it.

Yes. And it's not so scary, and I don't have the same, like I'm not paralyzed anymore by grief, whereas, and of course time is a function of that, but healing is as well, and it doesn't consume my [00:21:00] life like it used to. Of course, there are moments and it's still quite early, it's been three and a half years, but it doesn't consume me and I know that it would if I hadn't been open to experiencing all of the emotions because by facing those emotions, Being willing to address them, be it, somatically through the body, spiritually, emotionally, therapeutically.

We start to build a different relationship with those emotions and we start to understand them and reframe them and let them run their course. So it's not this constant fight or flight of being terrified of the emotions. It's allowing ourselves to be in them when we have to be, and releasing them through the body, letting them run their course.

And it's like with each layer, we iterate to a new version of ourself and we become I don't to say, I'm so resilient, but there are some days I look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, you are resilient. Like you've done this I'm proud of you. And I say this to myself and part of that has come through, allowing myself to fall down and stay down when I have to and then get back up when my body says it's time.

And it's by allowing ourselves to go through that experience [00:22:00] that it's not so terrifying anymore. So beautiful. I think 

Robyn: one of the things we talked about prior was the fact 

Karen: that the three of us on this call are aligned with the grief that we've experienced in our own lives. 

And this opportunity that we have as we go through 

this grief 

to share that understanding and to find new purpose because of that experience. And I think that's clearly what you're doing now, Leor. Can you talk about where that has led you since 

Lenore: Bruno passed?

Yes. Where I am now, actually I'll back up before that. so things came to a close for me in the search for why like I had my why and there was still a residence of that. But that came to a close at about 11 months, It was around there. There was, again, there was still, the shock and the trauma of coming to terms with what the person that I lived most in the world had endured.

And there was even, there were grief layers around that. But when I stopped really needing to understand why, and I felt like I understand enough in my body, and that's a decision that no one can make for someone. it could have been, many years. But it was something like intuitively that came up in my body.

And from [00:23:00] there I had to face my grief. 'cause again, I hadn't really grieved for it was about, that first year or so and. By coming to terms with, okay, I accept that Bruno has passed.

I accept that this happened to him. I accept that I have to face my pain in some way. There was these paralleled or even like tri-level experiences that happened. So there was that in the ongoing grief process with that and secondary losses of being a young widow. And that I still am moving through, but it was really two and a half years of deep grief around that.

And then I opened up to my mediumship and I was like, these experiences are not going away. And I just knew in my gut as far from my professional reality that mediumship had been before. I knew it was going to be a part of where I was going. I just knew. And then I also in my healing, started to dive more into somatic work.

So energy healing, working in the body, I was ready to begin to almost begin to understand and unpack and unlock the physical trauma of loss. Because as we know, traumatic. Loss is warfare on the body. It's absolutely physically obliterating. And [00:24:00] I couldn't keep that in my body from the first day.

Like I just knew I needed to do things like gentle yin yoga, walking I meditated every day, which really I feel Bruno led me to. That was just something that I had to do, but I was ready for more. And so through all of those different paths, I moved into understanding the connections between mind, body, spirit.

I got very into breath, work, very into deep energy healing. I met people who are now some of my closest friends and colleagues who are healers in this field, who came into it by way also of traumatic loss. And I really dove into my training in mediumship. So again, I asked Bruno, I put it out and I said, guide me 'cause I think this is where I have to go.

And he did just that. He guided me to my first mediumship teacher, who, I didn't know this until I started studying with her, but it turned out she was trained in psychology and her mediumship opened up when her late fiance passed. And it's come on. Like how? Come on. 

wow. I know. It was just like, okay.

Like I, I get, I just trust him time after time. Let me back up . As they started exploring mediumship, and I [00:25:00] will say on my website, I have a huge resource page that I'm constantly adding to, and it has all this stuff about the somatic work, where to find out about somatic therapy, where to find a therapist internationally where to go to train and mediumship and healing anything.

And it's all listed there, very credible places, and I add to it constantly. I started meeting other people who like me, we, quote unquote, we're pretty normal people. We're p priding ourselves on that.

We're also prefacing like who we are with, hi, I'm an engineer and X, y, Z. Because it's almost like we're stepping up to I don't know why I'm like, is everybody, gonna think I'm nuts? I don't know. But I started meeting other people finally that had opened up to this ability after the loss of a loved one.

And that was the first time I was like, it's not just me. One of my first instructor mentors as well, she told me, she's Lenore, you're on the fast track. I was like, what does that mean? She's your loved one opened this up for you. You're on the fast track. And I was like, how do I get off the fast track if I don't wanna be on the fast track anymore?

We always have free will. We can decide, but I didn't wanna be off it. It was more just oh my God, this is really happening. So quite quickly I started seeing clients actually, and I wasn't very comfortable with that, to be [00:26:00] honest. I was never comfortable with me monetizing it, but it's also an exchange for energy.

And while I fully and wholeheartedly believe that mediums just like any healer, therapist, et cetera, need to be justly compensated 'cause it is massive work to do mediumship readings and again, the training and the rigor that goes into that, I just knew that it wasn't my path. Just like in social work therapy wasn't my path.

I was always a macro level researcher. And it was just exactly a year ago, I put it up to spirit and I was like, I know that I'm ready for the next thing. Let me know. Tell me what it is. And very quickly it was meditation, after meditation, vision after vision. And now that you're ready to go back to research, mixing in your mediumship with what I'm doing now.

So yeah, so now I work, we can get into that if we want, but now I work. Yeah, we'll talk about it. 

Robyn: I think a lot of people listening know Karen and myself and our stories and that, as we've said already in this episode, we've had traumatic loss. And I know in my case, I didn't even realize that I [00:27:00] needed the healing close to 30 years later, after my dad had passed away. I had gone through my own grieving process early on 'cause I was 12. And what you explained too it was about a year that I was in complete shock and then desperate to figure out how do I feel again?

Because but all of a sudden I found myself not knowing how to handle life. And by moving through all of the different levels of grief, I came back to life, and stronger than I was before. Absolutely changed my life overnight.

And then it was all of those years later when I was led to a medium, all of a sudden I didn't even, because I have now a father figure in my life that has been my father on this earth longer than my father was. But that relationship now with my father, who did pass away when I was 12, is just as strong.

I talk to him every day, but I didn't know [00:28:00] that I needed that at all until I was led to that. So I bring that up because I didn't even know that I needed that type of healing all those years later. And what you are doing, and you'll talk about is actually giving that gift of healing, I think, to people sooner or when they're ready.

And can you talk about that? 'cause I think that data behind it may be really helpful to many people listening who have lost 

Lenore: loved ones. Yeah. And thank you for saying that, Robyn when you talk about, it was 30 years later, but that's just a testament to how trauma stays in the body.

And we can't think it away. We can't pretend it away. It's always there until , like you said, we're ready for it. And whatever the means may be to help process it. To me it's all about somatics and spiritual. It goes beyond the thinking mind. And I say that someone trained in a mental health field, it goes beyond a cognitive based therapeutic approach.

It is something that's so organically innate in ourselves, in our behaviors, ways that we can't even recognize with the [00:29:00] logical thinking mind. so the work that I do now it's very exciting. I am shifting in my seat, I'm sitting upright. It's this is my soul's work. And it's really just beginning as well.

I know. 

Robyn: Karen and I. We're like, wait, this happened only that long ago. And we know all the work that you've been doing. It's unbelievable in such a short amount of time, how much you've accomplished. Yeah. 

Karen: Period of 

time. 

And also share not only the research, but how you've shared that research in those forums and the reaction you're getting to it as well.

Lenore: Okay. So I'll start with a couple of the studies that I'm running now. I love research, I love data. I am the biggest geek and nerd and nerds unite. There's nothing more exciting than telling a story through lived experience and numbers and, quotes and interviews. And I just think that there's just so much love and reality that can be set forth in a good research study that comes from and is based in lived experience and shared community.

So there are two studies that I'm working on now that are really the foundation for some of the practices going forward. The [00:30:00] first study I did with 14 widows who. And they were my clients and the first reading that I did with them was before I went back to research.

So I had no idea that this would happen. And then that shift happened about a year ago. And the first thing, it was just this like knowing of I'm going to do a follow-up study and a longitudinal, which means over time longitudinal study to see how mediumship effects widows experience with grief and really extrapolating that beyond just widows.

But those are the people whom obviously who I tended to see more so there were 14 women, so I did a second mediumship reading with them. And then I did a prolonged interview or a long interview with them on how mediumship in general, not just me, 'cause some of them had seen other mediums as well, but how does mediumship over time affect their grief process?

And so we tend to see when we think about mediumship, it's like you have one medium reading and that's the door. It's, quote unquote one last hello or one final goodbye. And for me it was an open door. It was like, oh my gosh, this is an open door to an entirely different way of existing.

This is not a hello or a goodbye. This is a okay, let's go. And that was universally with the people that I was working [00:31:00] with. So I talked to the women who I was working with, that most of them had quite a traumatic loss. And of course, the loss of your spouse is traumatic, no matter however, it's, sliced.

And across the board, of course, there is a sample bias and that the people who have participated, they knew that they would be speaking to an experience with mediumship. But that being said, In their view, mediumship was an indisposable component of their healing indisposable in that it brought them light opening shifts, hope for the future, insight, clarity on what happened in the past, clarity for what may happen going forward, and also confirmation of their loved ones, not only their existence, but the way in which they and their spouse were continuing to work together going forward.

Those were some of the things that came forward with their readings. And so this either coupled with traditional therapy, things like yoga, breath work, or sometimes for some people only mediumship, that was what they chose as their healing path for every single person. It had an impact, a significant impact on their [00:32:00] mental health.

And we looked at mental health in terms of. Their ability to fall asleep, having hope for the future. They're wanting to still be here. Mediumship was really the key to them going forward. The second study that I'm doing, and this is where I've been traveling quite a bit the last few weeks.

I just got back from presenting this at a parapsychology conference in Europe. I was in Norway. The second study is I'm collecting stories from other people who have had an experience like I have, and it's suddenly when they're. Loved one whomever that person was, parents, spouse, child friends sibling, et cetera.

When their person crossed over to the other side, they were able to communicate. They being the surviving loved one, they were able to communicate with that person and with other spirits. On the other side. So I've interviewed over 30 people so far who have had the same experience from different countries.

And in grief, we're told, eventually we'll move forward and we're given a time, and I say this in society, right? Society gives us tops a year, maybe six weeks. We're given a tops a year, and then we're supposed to go back to who we were, right? And we're [00:33:00] saying in this research, and I can attest to this from my own lived experience, but now through the stories of other people as well, this is our moving forward when we get to build relationships, ongoing, dynamic, real-time relationships with our loved ones on the other side, they continue opening us, they continue guiding us to things that are way beyond what we could have deemed as possible.

Way beyond what the thinking mind could say is possible. And I look at my life now, And I have something that I've always wanted, ever since I was a kid. I always had this longing for purpose. I always had this longing for gentleness and peace. I never felt it before, even when Bruno and I were married and we had a very lovely, peaceful, loving this we were just crazy about each other.

But there was something in my own life that was missing that a partnership can't fulfill. And there are things that I have that I've always hoped for, and it's by surrendering to this guidance that's happened. So going forward, I am writing these different studies up. Of course, I'm continuing to do the research, but this is feeding into a longer term project, which I'm doing with [00:34:00] colleagues of mine who are mediums as well as licensed therapists.

So we're wearing both hats and we're looking at the impact of mediumship on mental health across populations. And for example, one project I know that is coming is a therapeutic intervention and looking at people who go through only traditional grief therapy versus. Traditional grief therapy and working with a medium over X amount of time.

What is the outcome on indicators like, able ability to sleep, hope for the future, depressive symptoms, anxiety. I know based on the qualitative data that's been collected so far, that this is going to have a positive outcome and impact on our mental health. And then another layer, then adding in the body work, yoga, meditation nature, these other elements that really speak to who we are as human beings and human beings processing trauma in the body.

Karen: What has been the medical community's reaction to the work you've 

Lenore: done so far? There's excitement, and again, this is so new and I'm really just getting our voice out there. But the conference that I was just at, I was approached by two different [00:35:00] MDs and they were excited about it.

But also I think what it is, when we have gone through a loss, there's something that supersedes like we were saying before with me and my identity crisis, this didn't matter anymore, that X, Y, Z was my career. Before that I worked in policy and I have a doctor of social work.

It's like grief strips you to your bare bones, trauma strips you of all of these kind of material things, including really, our education. And of course those are incredible tools that we have. Our titles, the letters after our names. But one of the MDSs who came up to me, she just hugged me and held me, and she's thank you so much.

And she was crying. And of course then I'm crying because I'm an empath and I'm like, all right, everyone's crying. but it was a really beautiful exchange. And she's I lost my mom and I can't talk about it the way that you've talked about it. And so I think that particularly for those of us who can relate to this on a human level because we've experienced it, there is a different kind of way that this resonates.

But then also beyond that, working with other grief therapists who've seen this in their clients, and even if the grief therapist perhaps themself hasn't gone through this kind of loss, there is a level of humanity in [00:36:00] some way that people who are on board, not everybody, but people who are on board with this, it resonates at a human level that goes beyond kind of the paradigms and parameters of what our professions say is acceptable.

so, this is a 

Karen: good segue too. If someone is going through grief right now, like that real raw feeling that you were just describing, 

Lenore: What is one of the first things that you would suggest that they do in this journey? Okay. The very first thing I would say is make sure your body is safe.

 So what does feeling safe, what does being safe mean? It's different per person, but to me it was being in a shelter with people who I know are there. So I came back and was with my mom and dad for a year, and that's of course not available to everyone, but having some sort of physical space around you and then people that can be there.

Second was, these are like basic needs. We're at like the lowest level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs when we've gone through something traumatic in the very beginning. Things like make sure you're drinking water because crying is incredibly hydrating and that exacerbates painful feelings when we're having them.

[00:37:00] Difficult, challenging feelings that may erupt. I would say find someone if you can, to help you offload, and maybe that's a loved one, but it may be a therapist, someone who is there. Our loved ones are there, but as I've experienced as well as a supporter, is to a point we're not meant as loved ones to resolve or help work through, the difficult emotions.

We can hold space, but of course there are limits on that. I have an article or a blog I wrote on my website on how to find support for traumatic loss. And psychic awakenings that happen parallel, so that might be of help. , so the first thing is just make sure you're safe. The second thing that I promised to myself, and this is so simple and so basic, but yet those of us who've gone through grief understand it. I told myself every day, I'm going to make my bed, and if that's all I can do today, if I don't even get to the shower and brush my teeth today, that's fine.

Every day I am going to make my bed. Because what it did was gave me a little bit of normalcy, a little bit of, so something was straightened in my room. There was a little bit of feng shui, like there was an energetic cleanliness, but it [00:38:00] also was just the simplest thing that gave me normalcy. I know that at least while I'm surviving, I have a made bed.

Then a few months into grief, I met another widow, bless her. Oh, she's amazing. She's about maybe 45 years, my senior and had a couple years on me in terms of losing her husband. She was one of my absolute mentors in terms of the grief side. And she told me, when you're ready, do something every day that raises your vibration.

And it doesn't mean do something that fixes your grief. ' cause that's not possible. It has to run its course. It doesn't mean do something to change how you're feeling. It's do something that adds a little bit of light. So For me, it would be a lot of nature walks. I walked outside every day just to listen to the birds.

I would see Bruno and the birds in the clouds. It might be exploring mediumship, it might be watching a, bad reality TV show. I spent so much money on sephora.com during year, whatever you have to do to stay alive within means. and I was forgive myself first, that's not my usual tactic, but it's like the [00:39:00] coping mechanisms and there were things and just being really thoughtful with myself of, checking in.

Is this, is it coping? Is it doing harm? Just really having an honest conversation. And then I think the fourth thing that I would really recommend is tending to your body. stretching, breathing. Water is the body is where the emotions erupt from. it was Covid that Bruno Paso, I was in quarantine for the first year of grief.

And so luckily my parents live in a warm climate, so I was outside and could stretch outside, every day I would go outside and use a yoga app and just do gentle yin yoga. And sometimes I would just cry for the full time or listen to the music, but it was just being in my body, and that's where I could get outta the swirling mind, and that's where I could start to really start to understand what was happening.

Robyn: Those are so helpful and as basic as they sound, we know when you're going through grief, those are not so easy. They actually can be challenging, thank you. And when you talk about, when you also found somatic work and you dove into energy healing what did you start to feel or see when you did that? [00:40:00] Obviously there was release. What, are those, even when someone's not going through trauma. We don't realize how much energy we pick up throughout our life and in any given day. So what would you suggest for people in that way, even if they don't feel they've gone through any sort of traumatic circumstance in terms of grief, how can they start to incorporate any of what you just talked about into their life now to feel better in general?

Lenore: I still do somatic work every single day. So the practices that I did in chronological order with guided meditation. Sound healing and those two can even find just on YouTube, or Google them. Also apps like insight timer. But yeah, so guided meditations and I would really focus on releasing negative energy bringing in light 

these are the kinds of things that I was experiencing very early on. And then sound healing, which would be like crystal balls different frequencies, Solfeggio frequency for example. So I would just listen to them with headphones on, put an eye cover, and just let myself go. Then I moved into breath work and conscious [00:41:00] connected breath work.

And actually even before that, different kinds of yoga. For six months, all I could do was y yoga, which is a very slow, very deep stretch, which really releases emotions. And then I started to pick up with some gentle vinyasa, which is more active, a little bit more movement. Then after that I added so Breathwork then actually came after Reiki.

It's something I had experienced before, but I started doing reiki, which calmed me. Then I moved into Kundalini energy and E F T tapping. I'm sure there are other ones, but those are the biggies. And all of these different modalities do something different. And they're definitely not just for someone who's going through trauma, the experience would be different.

But we all go through an experience. We've all gone through something traumatic in our lives, whether it's a big T, big trauma, little t, little trauma, and it's all relative as well. And. I think what looking at the evolution of how somatic work continues to play a role in my life. And there still are just massive releases, huge insights.

I turned to them when I'm feeling stuck, when I'm feeling down, when I'm feeling excited and I can't wait to like, expand. These [00:42:00] practices put, I mean thinking of the neurology of this, these practices help put our brain or usher our brain into a state where we're at an elevated brainwave frequency.

So meditation puts us in a place where we're able to intercept and we had a checkout, right? And so we're able to intercept or be more fluid and open to insights that may come, that go beyond the, I'm making list and this is my to-do and this is what I should do. And so those insights come to us.

Breath work and these other different modalities help move forward that process of coming into a different brainwave state. It's almost like a dream wave state. These are the same states of deep meditation that mediums are at when they receive insight from the spirit world. And There are insights that come, there's release that comes when we're activating our nervous system so that it's moving into a parasympathetic state or if we're highly dissociated.

So we're an extreme parasympathetic and we're moving it into a more active state. Our body is different. We're able to release things. Even things like a deep breath. with doing that in a sequence moves our body into a different stadium. our brainwaves, our brain patterns just operate in a different [00:43:00] way.

And so anybody can benefit from moving out of a swirling thinking mind. Into a state where we're receiving information and insights, where we're getting confirmation, where perhaps we're in such a deep meditative state that we actually have encounters that at the very least feel like, but I would say are experiences with, other energies be they loved, ones on the other side, guides, et cetera.

And this is our innate human right, it's our birthright to be able to go into these places, but it's the experiences of the human life like trauma or work stress or a fender bender, whatever it may be, that move us away from that path and we store it in our bodies. And so experiencing something through a somatic release, whatever practice we may choose, just helps us, get back to our spiritual selves.

And by doing so, process the humanness of being human and really understand it in a different way. What I'm thinking about. 

Karen: People who are listening right now who may have lost a loved one and have compartmentalized 

that off. 

I think [00:44:00] back to when my sister's suicide and even Robyn to, to a certain extent, there's that movement to normalize life back, To get out of trauma and to get some sort of normalcy back. And I think that we're conditioned, You were saying like, you maybe 

get six weeks and that's the 

expectation of society, to get everybody back on, on into the normal world. And because of that, Rob world, maybe mother even very well-meaning to be like, okay we have to get her back to school and get her back to life.

And in my world, it was always thinking about my mom and how's my mother doing and how do we become normal 

again so that she doesn't have to feel that and worry about that. And 

I just think there's that recognition that we have been conditioned in that way to, to just get through it, 

because this happens every day and it happens to everyone, to your point. So I just kinda wanna acknowledge that for people, if they're feeling like they're looking at someone like you, 

Wow, look at what she's 

been able to do with her grief and how she's really helping the world. And some of us may not feel like we have that capability to do that, and we may even be so closed off that we [00:45:00] haven't even really felt to the extent because we just wanted to get past it.

And so I don't know. What would you say? Do you have maybe some pointers or some ideas for people who might resonate with that a bit and wanna connect somewhat with a loved one, but feels oh my gosh, I'm not a medium, I don't have that level of intuition. What can I do to have that connection?

Lenore: I think even before connecting to mediumship, just to say if someone is listening who's found themselves like you said, compartmentalizing or putting it away for years, that makes total sense. Of course. And I think really the circumstances of being in Covid, the world was shut down.

I think that really facilitated me surrendering to this. And, we had been expats and I lost my rights to live in the country that I was living in, that Bruno and I had because he passed and was tied to his citizenship. So I think that it was almost a perfect storm if I had no choice but knowing me, who I was before.

Even being a sensitive person and, all logic points to, I would've done it very differently if I could have controlled the very extreme circumstances, which I couldn't have. And so I always say, and I really hold this close, is there is no shame in acting how we [00:46:00] act, especially in the context of trauma.

it makes total sense why we react, how we do, and then if we choose, to explore a different path and it's happening exactly when it's supposed to happen. And that's a beautiful thing. In terms of the mediumship side, so there are two ways to look at it. One is, I totally, obviously, spoiler, but I full stamp of approval on seeing mediums.

And in terms of finding a credible medium. and I say that as well, is it's an open door to our own abilities. One is there's oftentimes insight that comes through in mediumship readings about our ways forward, ways that we interact with our loved ones and our own intuitive abilities. There's also something that happens in a really good reading and really good means.

It's, it feels right. And again, I think that the feeling right partly comes from, just trying again if it hasn't worked out before, and then asking our loved ones to guide us. But there's a physiological. Energetic shift that happens when all of the stars are aligned in that reading and it opens something up and then we find I dunno, we were suddenly on an email listserv, we didn't realize we were on and this class comes to us or this [00:47:00] book we find on our Amazon search.

And like the signs start to pour in, or it's like one after another and we're like, okay, gingerly stepping forward. So seeing a medium can be a beautiful unlocking of our own experience with our abilities. And even just with gently being open to, could this be real? Because I think that there's a healthy skepticism that's really powerful to maintain.

And then in terms of looking at our own mediumship, what I have done, and I teach some classes and I am developing some online programs, but the core of it is meditation. And again, it's moving into that space where we're able to receive information. We're moving into this meditative space where our brain is always open.

The thinking mind is subsided. It takes time to get there. Yes. Guided meditations, I think work wonders because they move us past. We don't have to just sit in silence and wait for something guided. Meditations coax us there. But meditation really is a beautiful way to open up and then the other way forward in exploring our own mediumship.

And this is by no means only for people who've lost a one. But just taking classes for fun. So actually there's a really exciting [00:48:00] event coming up arthur Finley College. It is a institute for studying mediumship healing psychic work psychic art.

It's incredible, it's world renowned. They have what's called Open week in October, and you can basically pig out on all the classes, just trying things out for fun. Zero expectations. Then there are other institutes as well that are highly credible that you can just go to see what is this all about?

No pressure, no expectations. And so it's just looking at it with an open mind of what could be. and that could be maybe you find something that feels really great and also it may shift over time as well. But they're really just doors open to exploring this world that's been kept from us.

And when it's not kept from us, it's sensationalized or hollywoodized in a way that makes it unaccessible. And we're really stepping in and saying, no, it's highly accessible to all of us. We just need to shift the narrative and 

Robyn: we'll make sure to have all the links to what you're talking about in our show notes.

And I also have to say that whomever is listening right now, it's on purpose. There's a curiosity that [00:49:00] you have, which is why you're listening to Seeking Center in the first place, and you're specifically listening to this episode without even realizing that. That's why. It's because there's some wheels that need to be turning.

And so perhaps. Just by checking one of these things out, it may be an unlocking for you as you go forward in whatever way you end up using it. And I love that word, I use that word all the time.

So does Karen, that unlocking, all of our experiences, it was whatever that initial was unlocking for me, it was about 13 years ago and it was my experience with the medium that unlocked so much that I would never in a zillion years could have imagined. So maybe this conversation is unlocking for someone listening right now.

Karen: Yeah. I love that. And I also love how you're able to marry the world of mental health with all of these spiritual practices, because we would never say one is more important than the other. They just have such an opportunity really [00:50:00] intertwine in someone's journey and really help them in various different ways.

that's amazing 

in itself. Know that you're doing that and really just opening up people's minds in both, just people like us and the scientific community about what's possible and how real healing can 

Lenore: take place. So thank you for that. . And we feel better when we get to be our full selves.

And a full self of a human is also a spiritual and intuitive self that I feel so much more authentically me. I'm better with boundaries. I'm better with expressing myself. I'm better with trusting what's right for me. I'm better at saying no to things that aren't right for me. And all that comes from this intuitive connection, both, upwards and out to Bruno and to other guys.

But more than anything, to my gut and myself and my own soul. And if we can, put that into a mental health paradigm of how to trust things that make you feel right and feel good in your body. Yeah, can we bottle that? Perfect. Let's write prescriptions for that 

Robyn: and can we educate people about that?

And really even at a young age, yes. I think about now with my own daughter [00:51:00] who's 15. We talk about what feels good. We talk about also, in my home we're talking about everything from talking to spirit guides and deceased loved ones. We talk about that. I know that's not the norm, but I am so grateful she's open and that she sees it herself.

'cause she's a highly sensitive person. I didn't realize how highly sensitive I was at that age. But if we can normalize, just like we're talking about in this whole conversation, if we can start to normalize this now, think about the world 10 years from now, 20 years from now and beyond, it's a totally different world.

I do think also fear of death changes. All of it. And mental health. In that conversation. It's just everything we're talking about right now, I hope, is the beginning of something that is going to really shift consciousness as we move forward.

Lenore: Absolutely. And 

Robyn: Can you tell everyone right now about the workshops that you are offering? I know you mentioned working on some online [00:52:00] courses, because I have a feeling that those that are listening right now are gonna want more from you in addition to also finding out what happens as you continue with all of the research that you're doing.

Lenore: Yes, so we just wrapped up a live retreat. One of my colleagues and I Kate Deko, who's a licensed psychotherapist as well as a born medium. That was this past weekend in Boston, but we will do it again probably within a year. So do stay tuned in that regard. And it was a retreat basically on unlocking our intuitive ability, so that will happen again. In addition to that, I'm developing a couple of online courses. I do talks all the time and free talks all the time. So those are always listed on my website. And they're mostly online. 

But in terms of the courses I'm developing, So one is continued connection and it's different practices to develop your relationship with your loved one on the other side. And they're practices that Bruno has taught me and that I've taught him and we've taught each other that have really allowed us different modalities and different ways, be it through [00:53:00] automatic writing, be it through guided meditation be it through different ways that we communicate how we've gotten to really know each other in this new way.

And also how is this good for us and the ways in which this ongoing communication is good for us. It's brought so much light, happiness, joy, expansion, while also honoring of course that the grief coexists alongside this. But by and large, , the working together with him has absolutely revolutionized my grief.

And I know that this is the case with other people. So that is one course. And then I'm also going to be doing a workshop on. Being suddenly psychic. So when your abilities suddenly open up and what does it mean? And this is both based on my own experience, but also the research that I'm doing. In terms of what do we experience across the board?

And there are uncanny similarities that we experience. So the first one is the question that all of us universally ask ourselves, which is, am I crazy? And the answer is no, you are not. Providing them statistics, both from my research, but also other research that's out there, there's a vibrant research base on communications after death communication.

So bringing in some of those main findings to help us really believe [00:54:00] ourselves, believe what's happening. And then going on as well. Questions around identity questions around worldview and belief system and fear. Really that's something that people have in the beginning as what does this mean? Is it safe, to be contacting?

Is it dark? All of these questions, and unanimously no, of course I say, what could be more beautiful than contacting someone who we love so much? Who is. Eager to contact us. Always. We're not bothering them. Of course, they wanna hear from us. How could our spouse, child, sibling, partner, parents not want to talk to us.

They're always trying to talk. So then really normalizing that experience. And then how do we tap into it? . I'm doing another talk that's coming up fairly soon with another young widow whose abilities opened up in grief. She is, if I'm left brained, she's like hyper left-brained.

I love her to pieces. And we're talking about shame and overcoming shame as we step into our intuitive and spiritual and mediumistic selves. And then how do we do this again, from a place of not knowing what's going on. This is a completely different world, especially as adults when we open up to this.

So the online courses will be evergreen, [00:55:00] so it's go at your own pace. My live workshops are interactive, so there's q and a. The talks I do are also live and then recorded. And so I just. my heart and my soul. Just want to put as much normalizing information out there and tools out there so that people can pick and choose what speaks to them.

 And explore this beautiful world, which again, I feel is a human right. A birthright. It is a birthright to speak to our loved ones. It is a birthright to know our own souls and soul path. It is a birthright to go through life in a way that's not linear and planned out. It is a birthright to know our intuition and soul selves and that's really what I'm trying to put forth.

Karen: It's what we're trying to do 

Robyn: too. It totally aligns. 

Karen: There's just so much 

Robyn: to today. You make me feel better, I'll tell you that.

Because sometimes I question myself, because you can sometimes be like, am I crazy? because it's not normalized in our culture. I bet you that there are cultures that it is normalized.

Lenore: Yes. Yeah. And I actually found that in some of my research because the people that I spoke with for this psychic awakening study in [00:56:00] grief, some of the people were from different countries. Most were women from the us but not universally. And that was just the first round of data collection.

And some people, like for example, one of the women was from the countryside in Ireland, and she's it's quite normal to talk about things like fairies and, have experiences. And she's I heard the Banshee before my son passed, and it's the cultural context. She's it's not, it wasn't so wild that I was having these experiences and I could talk about it a bit more.

And yes, the cultural context is absolutely It can open up the conversation of normalizing this a hundred percent. 

Robyn: I could talk to you all day. I know. we know that this is really the first of many conversations and other work that we hopefully will be doing together.

Absolutely. we're so grateful to know you, and we're so grateful for the work that you're doing and what you have done with this experience, and we're grateful to Bruno too. thank you. He's a 

Karen: powerful soul indeed. Yes, he is a good, he is a good egg. 

Robyn: He sure is. He sure is. you can find out more about Dr.

[00:57:00] Lenore Matthew's work, her upcoming events and resources that she talked about, and we'll have those in our show notes. But you can find all of that on Dr. Lenore, or I should at drlenorematthew.com. And you can also follow her on Instagram at Dr.

Lenore Matthew as well. Lenore, thank you so much. 

Lenore: Thank you so much for having me. Just, you're both such angels and if I can say thank you for the work that you're doing, this is so important. The conversations you're bringing forth are really changing lives. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.